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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    Here's the problem with that: if Barry was boring, then why replace him with Wally when the latter was a slightly less likable version of Barry during the New Teen Titans era? BTW, Wolfman didn't like writing Wally stories for TNTT, either.
    Because the character beat of replacing a legend is a good storytelling hook and a much more interesting premise than anything Barry had for years prior.

    And it bared out pretty freaking well.

    Asking how Wally is different from Barry is about as tiresome as calling Barry boring.

    They consider different things because of course they do. Saying that they didn't go with Ryan and that shows how little they viewed Wally is silly because it was shot down for a reason just as much as it was considered.

    Quote Originally Posted by The no face guy View Post
    Lol, case in point. I remember the Green Lantern DC comic message boards well...shame they got shut down. Well as long as the people doing the debating were actually around when Barry Allen was supposedly boring in the early 80's (As opposed to a teen engaging in revisionist comic history) I don't have a problem with it
    Someone literally linked Marv Wolfman expressly stating that there was a consensus thinking Barry was boring, even though he didn't agree. Talking like this is needlessly condescending. Do you think all history scholars are fools because they didn't live in the eras they know about and are interested in? Is it so weird to you that a comic fan is familiar with the history of the hobby they love?
    Last edited by Dred; 05-30-2020 at 06:46 PM.

  2. #32
    Fantastic Member The no face guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rend20 View Post
    I mean, there was a push from people like Wolfman to make a new character named McKenzie Ryan(?) the new Flash. But based on interviews and such, they went with Wally because a) he was a name readers were somewhat familiar with and b) he was easier to revamp.

    I mean, wasn't Wally's characterization in the beginning of his Flash run with Baron pretty much the opposite of Barry?
    Out of curiosity Rend, were you old enough in the early/mid 80's, to hear that "Barry Allen was boring?" because it sounds like your just pulling sound bites from articles, and stitching together your own history for a personal agenda. Wally West received the mantle of the Flash, because Kid Flash was an extremely popular character.

  3. #33
    Fantastic Member The no face guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    Someone literally linked Marv Wolfman expressly stating that there was a consensus thinking Barry was boring, even though he didn't agree. Talking like this is needlessly condescending. Do you think all history scholars are fools because they didn't live in the eras they know about and are interested in? Is it so weird to you that a comic fan is familiar with the history of the hobby they love?
    History scholars? Comic history scholars? Which comic history scholars do you speak of. Please provide the links with empirical evidence, so we can judge for ourselves. Who would you like to see as the Flash?

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by The no face guy View Post
    History scholars? Comic history scholars? Which comic history scholars do you speak of. Please provide the links with empirical evidence, so we can judge for ourselves. Who would you like to see as the Flash?
    I'm talking about scholars of real life history. It is a comparison. People can be knowledgeable about things they did not live through. I don't know why you need me to give you empirical evidence of the idea that people can learn things.

    Iris West II. I am not shy and have stated this several times before. Wally is my favorite superhero, but I'm all for finding new and potentially better alternatives. A lot of people are (I think foolishly) talking about how Barry and Wally are interchangeable in this thread and they could've just "changed" Barry to be more like Wally. While I think that is fundamentally absurd and the best things about Wally are birthed from his differences that Barry literally can't emulate...Good luck convincing me Barry could tell the same kinds of stories as a Korean Woman superhero.
    Last edited by Dred; 05-30-2020 at 07:06 PM.

  5. #35
    Fantastic Member The no face guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    I'm talking about scholars of real life history. It is a comparison. People can be knowledgeable about things they did not live through. I don't know why you need me to give you empirical evidence of the idea that people can learn things.

    Iris West II. I am not shy and have stated this several times before.
    You need to provide proof because you are making a claim on a truth "People thought Barry Allen was boring in the 80's" without providing any evidence to justify your claim, and without living through that time period as a comic fan.

    If you can not provide evidence to your claim, your argument has no credibility, your just a fan boy with an agenda against Barry Allen.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by The no face guy View Post
    You need to provide proof because you are making a claim on a truth "People thought Barry Allen was boring in the 80's" without providing any evidence to justify your claim, and without living through that time period as a comic fan.

    If you can not provide evidence to your claim, your argument has no credibility, your just a fan boy with an agenda against Barry Allen.
    Literally someone provided proof, with a link, earlier in the thread that I referenced for you. What are you even talking about? Proof was given! A man at the head of the industry, talking about the state of the industry, said it. What more proof do you need than Marv Wolfman's testimony?

    Edit: Like do you want me to go dig up the Cary Bates interview where they considered turning Barry into a PCP addict to spice up the comic because it was in dire need of a new direction, and how stories like Death of Iris were in the same vein of shock material as that? Should I drum up every ancient interview talking about Barry's death in COIE which all state the same general comments of stagnancy, lack of interest, and need of a new direction?
    Last edited by Dred; 05-30-2020 at 07:17 PM.

  7. #37
    Fantastic Member The no face guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rend20 View Post
    Except there is a huge difference between radically changing a character who has had their own book for years versus a relatively minor character who mostly appeared in a team book as a bit player. Barry had perceived baggage that Wally didn't in the eyes of editorial at the time.



    Barry being seen as boring is one of the reported reasons those in charge got rid of him. The fact they wanted an anti-Barry Flash run would seem to sum up how they viewed his character up to that point. Could they have tried to revamp him? Sure. But by that logic, DC should have just revamped Jay and Alan in the 1950's. But it was just easier/better to start over with someone different.
    Very good I did not see that post. It provides some evidence from the opinion of Marv Wolfman, (although he is not explicitly stating comic fans thought he was boring, nor does it state that the Flash series was cancelled due to slumping sales), but it is a start.

    Provide another piece of evidence, and the sales figures on the Flash for the time, and i will grant that the argument is yours, but that one article alone is not strong enough evidence to provide proof to your claim.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    I like the original LAW & ORDER because the main characters don't get in the way of the episode's plot. In fact, the few times when we see Lenny struggling with his gambling addiction or Jack being too familiar with his A.D.A detract from my appreciation, I just want the show to be a procedural and that's when it's at its best.

    In the same way, what was good about the classic run of the Flash was the plotting. You could infer things about the characters of Barry and Iris, but the main attraction of the comic was these amazing adventures. During the relevance era, writers had characters go on these long rants about their feelings--but Barry was largely spared from that embarrassment. Cary Bates being such a good plotter, the comics were enjoyable for all the action in them.

    I suppose that makes me superficial. But some comics are best if the main characters know enough to get out of the way of the plot. If you think that means the characters are boring so be it--but that's missing the point of what those comics are for.
    I feel like comics have kind of outgrown that format in some regards, at least from what people expect of modern comics.
    Quote Originally Posted by Midnighter View Post
    Not to mention since he's been brought back the only consistent characterization he's been given has been from Williamson and even then only because he's been on the title for such a long time.
    I found Barry under Johns, Manapul/Buccelato, and Williamson fairly consistent.

  9. #39
    Fantastic Member Dr. Ellingham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    Anytime I read or hear about any character being boring, my first impression is that the person in question is a fan of another character with the same powers and/or codename and is conducting a propaganda war in favor of his or her favorite. I rarely ever come across the word when it involves a character not in competition with anybody, at any rate.
    Yup. This very thread, like many on this site, will - continue to - produce evidence of this.

    But I remember in the late 1970s, Cary Bates wrote a story where Barry asked Iris if he was boring somehow - because a stalker wasn't interested in him after she saw him unmasked.

    And it's worth repeating - the Flash comic survived through some rocky times for superhero series, all the way from the 1950s to the 1980s - one of the very, very few solo superhero comics to do so not featuring Superman or Batman. In that time comics featuring Aquaman, X-Men, Green Lantern and the rest were started and cancelled, for reasons various and sundry. (Hell, they even cancelled Detective Comics, briefly, before figuring out a trick to keep it going under a new banner)

    So questioning the appeal of Flash / Barry Allen? That's kinda nonsense, bathed in silliness.

  10. #40
    Dark Angel of Feminism Shadowcat's Avatar
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    They could have revamped Barry just as easily as they did Clark, Bruce, and Diana, so the arguments that he couldn’t be revamped are garbage. They only kept his death as a permanent fixture because DC wanted to say “this happened” regarding Crisis. Wolfman even left DC an out on how to bring him back in Crisis.
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowcat View Post
    They could have revamped Barry just as easily as they did Clark, Bruce, and Diana, so the arguments that he couldn’t be revamped are garbage.
    Except nobody in this thread has made that argument so far?

    Saying Wally was easier to revamp based on what DC wanted isn't saying they couldn't have revamped Barry. It would have just been a little more difficult to sell "this isn't the same old Flash!" and such with Barry continuing on as the lead like he had been for the last 20+ years. Whether right or wrong, DC wanted a fresh start with the Flash book.

    It's a similar rationale as to why Julius Schwartz and company wanted to go with a new character (Barry) rather than with Jay in the 1950's. They felt Jay had already run his course and wanted to introduce a new Flash to a new generation of readers. Those in charge at the time simply felt Barry's time had come and gone for multiple reasons.
    Last edited by Rend20; 05-30-2020 at 10:23 PM.

  12. #42
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    The myth started back in the Hyborian Age, long before Lemuria, Mu, and Atlantis were lost to us, in that ancient north land of Hyperborea. Indeed, Sumeria and Babylon were yet to be dreams when the myth of boring Barry was birthed. There are few remnants left of that bygone era, much left of the myth, but to those with tomes of forgotten lore and access to the Akashic records, it all started after a red dressed runner from the future arrived and totally killed the buzz they had going...

  13. #43
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    What’s “boring”?

    I always assumed Barry was created to be a typical guy...bright, but not outlandishly so, in a job that paid okay, an important job but not remotely glamorous.

    He had no trauma in his life...but then he’s gifted by accident with the most fantastic power.

    What does he do with the fantastic power? He just goes about helping people..with not the slightest attempt to enrich himself or benefit himself in anyway.

    For me..back in the day he was DC’s most endearing hero....but yes he was Mr Joe Ordinary.

    Could anybody stay like that in the modern world? I think a skilled writer could make a compelling series exploring that.

    Ultimately it doesn’t matter whether a character has “interesting quirks“...the important thing is whether you can make the reader care about him, and tell engrossing stories using him.

    Barry easily passes those two tests (i.e. lots of readers care about him, and it’s possible to feature him in good stories.)
    Last edited by JackDaw; 05-30-2020 at 11:22 PM.

  14. #44
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowcat View Post
    They could have revamped Barry just as easily as they did Clark, Bruce, and Diana, so the arguments that he couldn’t be revamped are garbage. They only kept his death as a permanent fixture because DC wanted to say “this happened” regarding Crisis. Wolfman even left DC an out on how to bring him back in Crisis.
    Could they have changed Barry? Sure, modern Barry isn’t the same guy as Pre-Crisis Barry. But I’ve seen lots of Flash fans complain about the obsession with Barry’s dead mom. And there are other factors to consider: Barry was a cop. Barry was married and thus “old”. Barry’s last story hadn’t been received well. Wally was young, had been in NTT which was one of DC’s most popular books, and was pretty much a blank slate they could take in any direction.

  15. #45
    Burn Baby Burn Burning Eyes's Avatar
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    Reply to OP.

    While I cannot say precisely when the idea of “Barry Allen is boring” originated, I can say that for my uncle (who is a big Flash fan), the point where Barry no longer interested him came when Iris West was first killed. After that point, he lost interest in Barry Allen, at least until the Flash started airing on the CW.
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