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  1. #61
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    They aged Bart into adulthood off-panel and completely changed his personality when they made him the Flash. It was a complete disservice to the character.

    Impulse was a unique and full realised character. It was a mistake to ever change that.
    That may be true... but I always hated OG Impulse. Couldn't stand that character. I liked him better when he switched to Kid Flash in Teen Titans... but despite the mischaractizations and changes... i really liked him best when he was Flash.

    Whatever loops they jumped through to get him there... I really liked that character.

  2. #62
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    So they changed him into a completely different character. At that point, it would have been better off being a different character, would it not?

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    I don't see it that way. If anything i saw Wally getting REALLY stale and taking a backseat in his own book once the kids showed up.
    I believe the last twelve issues of Johns' run averaged selling around 47k and was top 35-ish on the charts. The book wasn't really struggling at the time the decision to switch Wally out. Would that success have continued? I don't know. But killing a book doing well on the off-chance Bart might do a little better doesn't seem like sound strategy.

    The fact they seemingly made the decision to cancel Bart's run by the sixth issue (while changing his character) just highlights how mismanaged the title was at the time. They tried to fix something that wasn't really broke and made a mess of things. It's why they should have just brought Barry back in Infinite Crisis if that's what they wanted.

  4. #64
    Mighty Member Timothy Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowcat View Post
    Tim always said he never wanted to be Batman, Cassie wasn’t being groomed to take over for Diana, and Conner was eternally 16. I’m not seeing how the Young Justicer’s were supposed to be anything more than the sidekicks they were created as.

    They can't be teenagers forever. Characters get older even in the sliding timeline of the DC Universe. The concept of Legacy character taking over their predecessors actually leads to a more streamlined continuity because you just have focus on two generations: the heroes and the sidekicks. If you don't have a situation where you allow older characters to retire and let younger heroes take their place, you'll have a Universe where characters such as Batman have a dozen different former sidekicks that no one has any idea what to do with.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    I think it was a good idea to replace Barry.

    But Wally’s sales really weren’t great towards the end of his run. It’s Flash..so they weren’t cancellation numbers. But they were poor-ish for Flash. At the time I followed the numbers..and a well written Iron Fist over at Marvel was selling at similar levels.

    Wally’s most interesting story had been about maturing, courting Linda, the first forays into the Speed Force.

    They didn’t seem a massive fan demand to see his family grow and see Wally go onto middle age. No one I can remember at the time was saying it was still a great comic...indeed a lot of fans seemed to think it wasn’t even good.

    I think there was at least a reasonable argument to say it was time to move onto next main Flash...pity that Bart wasn’t given a fairer chance.
    His sales were good when they cancelled him during Infinite Crisis. I'm not sure it's fair to compare the halfassed, mismanaged (possibly intentionally) return. Rogue War was certainly no bottom out point like Trial of The Flash was.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jcady59 View Post
    That’s not on Barry that’s on Wally, backpedaling on Bart was what damaged legacy in the Flash. Most don’t acknowledge it because most people going on about legacy in the flash are Wally fans.

    If the rumors where to be believed then captain boomerangs kid was going to be the new flash,so we really didn’t miss out on anything.
    The backpedaling was originally planned to be Barry. They even make a cheeky note of it in the comic where Wally returns with Batman stating he thought it was Barry coming back, hinting towards Final Crisis.

    Didio also said when they made Bart The Flash they absolutely never had any plans to make it permanent. It was the same was when they made Dick Batman. Not a real legacy step.


    All in all, in a more perfect world, we would've gotten a much better, more intentional transition from Wally to Bart. But Didio expressly stated that was never the goal, and the goal was to bring back Barry when GL Rebirth was so successful. It just got moved to Final Crisis. Didio has stated countless times characters like Wally and Dick were counter intuitive to his vision because they made Batman and Superman and Wonder Woman look too old and it was better to throw away or ruin or deage or reboot the younger characters than have older characters be...old. They didn't undermine legacy by bringing back Wally, they undermined legacy by intentionally setting up Bart to fail so they could transition back to Barry, as Barry doesn't make Bruce Wayne look old.

    It's a disgusting mindset that the entire rest of the line is held hostage by the fact that Batman's age can't be in the 40s. That's literally why Wally and Bart were done so dirty and why Barry was brought back. Not because Barry's a great character or anything else. Because it doesn't synergize the brand the way they wanted. It's the same reason why and idea like 5g had to be linewide, so you could keep the sanctity of the "main" DC characters and throw out a bunch of new ideas to see what stuck. But it got cancelled because everyone and their mother couldn't bear the idea of a couple of years with new characters.
    Last edited by Dred; 06-01-2020 at 04:28 PM.

  6. #66
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll View Post
    Disagreed. Legacy is what DC is all about and when it's done well those are the stories and characters that fans remember most. Some of my favorite DC runs are about legacy, Wally Flash run from the 90s, Starman, JSA by Johns were extremely popular and profitable runs for DC. DC has lost it's way in regards to legacy thanks to the leadership.
    Disagreed - Legacy is an aspect if DC, but it has never been what DC is all about. There is a lot of DC that isn't about legacy, and personally I find that stuff more interesting than the legacy stuff. Not saying anyone is wrong for loving the legacy aspect, just saying it isn't the big draw some think it is, and not everyone into DC is into legacy.

  7. #67
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Disagreed - Legacy is an aspect if DC, but it has never been what DC is all about. There is a lot of DC that isn't about legacy, and personally I find that stuff more interesting than the legacy stuff. Not saying anyone is wrong for loving the legacy aspect, just saying it isn't the big draw some think it is, and not everyone into DC is into legacy.
    Yeah I gotta agree with this. No offense but the second gen teams, the Titans, Teen Titans, and Young Justice, haven’t really been a big draw for years. The most successful GL run starred Hal Jordan the “classic” GL who has nothing in common with Alan Scott beyond the name. Arthur is still Aquaman, Diana is Wonder Woman, Clark is Superman. DC took the Batman mantle from Dick very quickly even though DickBats was popular. The franchise that I think has the strongest focus on legacy is the Flash, and even that has reverted to Barry.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Yeah I gotta agree with this. No offense but the second gen teams, the Titans, Teen Titans, and Young Justice, haven’t really been a big draw for years. The most successful GL run starred Hal Jordan the “classic” GL who has nothing in common with Alan Scott beyond the name. Arthur is still Aquaman, Diana is Wonder Woman, Clark is Superman. DC took the Batman mantle from Dick very quickly even though DickBats was popular. The franchise that I think has the strongest focus on legacy is the Flash, and even that has reverted to Barry.
    Actually Titans and Young Justice were BIG DRAWS..

    For example Young Justice #5 (December 1998) sold about 40,000 issues and Batman/Superman/Flash also sold about 40,000-44,000 issues.

  9. #69
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Yeah I gotta agree with this. No offense but the second gen teams, the Titans, Teen Titans, and Young Justice, haven’t really been a big draw for years. The most successful GL run starred Hal Jordan the “classic” GL who has nothing in common with Alan Scott beyond the name. Arthur is still Aquaman, Diana is Wonder Woman, Clark is Superman. DC took the Batman mantle from Dick very quickly even though DickBats was popular. The franchise that I think has the strongest focus on legacy is the Flash, and even that has reverted to Barry.
    yep, you beat me to it.

    Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, Aquaman, Martian Manhunter.... Five of the original 7 Justice League members are still the same characters they've always been. The two that did push legacy..... are BACK to their 1960's identities. So the core bedrock of DC... is not 'legacy'. It's just an aspect they used in the 90's that made them different than Marvel.

  10. #70
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Thats by design. The second gen teams, like many of those characters themselves, are capped to further protect the idea of JL and that gen as the premier team. As they are deemed the more accessible. The others not being big draws in years goes hand in hand with the level of support and managing belief behind things. If they were to become big draws they would begin to be seen as threats and distractions. So they cap or hedged the level of support and investment to purposely keep those gens and teams within a certain level.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 06-02-2020 at 03:58 AM.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Disagreed - Legacy is an aspect if DC, but it has never been what DC is all about. There is a lot of DC that isn't about legacy, and personally I find that stuff more interesting than the legacy stuff. Not saying anyone is wrong for loving the legacy aspect, just saying it isn't the big draw some think it is, and not everyone into DC is into legacy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Yeah I gotta agree with this. No offense but the second gen teams, the Titans, Teen Titans, and Young Justice, haven’t really been a big draw for years. The most successful GL run starred Hal Jordan the “classic” GL who has nothing in common with Alan Scott beyond the name. Arthur is still Aquaman, Diana is Wonder Woman, Clark is Superman. DC took the Batman mantle from Dick very quickly even though DickBats was popular. The franchise that I think has the strongest focus on legacy is the Flash, and even that has reverted to Barry.
    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    yep, you beat me to it.

    Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, Aquaman, Martian Manhunter.... Five of the original 7 Justice League members are still the same characters they've always been. The two that did push legacy..... are BACK to their 1960's identities. So the core bedrock of DC... is not 'legacy'. It's just an aspect they used in the 90's that made them different than Marvel.
    I mean, you guys know that "legacy" doesn't just mean cases where the title hero is literally replaced, right? It applies to any scenario where the title hero inspires other characters to take up the fight and/or adopt similar mantles. So, all those franchises you guys mentioned are filled with legacy characters: Supergirl, Superboy (Conner), Superboy (Jon), Steel, Nightwing (aka Robin I), Red Hood (aka Robin II), Tim Drake (Robin III), Damian Wayne (Robin V), Cassandra Cain (Batgirl III), Stephanie Brown (Robin IV and Batgirl IV), Barbara Gordon (Batgirl II), Donna Troy, Cassie Sandsmark, Garth, Tula, Lorena Marquez, Jackson Hyde, etc.

    And while the most successful GL run starred Hal, that run wouldn't have been what it was if the other Green Lanterns didn't exist. Those big events wouldn't have had the same impact if it was just Hal or if all that GL history hadn't happened.

    So, yeah, I'd say DC isn't all about legacy, but it is absolutely one of the core, fundamental pillars of the DC Universe.

  12. #72
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterff View Post
    Actually Titans and Young Justice were BIG DRAWS..

    For example Young Justice #5 (December 1998) sold about 40,000 issues and Batman/Superman/Flash also sold about 40,000-44,000 issues.
    Reread what I posted. I said they haven’t been big draws for years and they haven’t. The Titans, Teen Titans, and Young Justice all don’t sell as well as they used to.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy Hunter View Post
    They can't be teenagers forever.
    They can be whatever age DC wants them to be.

  14. #74
    Mighty Member Timothy Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    They can be whatever age DC wants them to be.
    You made the mistake of taking what I said literally. Sure DC has the final word on these characters, but that doesn't mean making the right decisions from a storytelling standpoint.

  15. #75

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    I'm a fan of Far Sector so I wouldn't mind them doing that approach with other characters. It could be a fun experiment and a way to give the Earth One imprint a kick in the pants.

    Granted I don't think replacing Barry or Wally in the main canon is gonna do much good.
    Last edited by the illustrious mr. kenway; 06-02-2020 at 12:52 PM.

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