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  1. #16
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    There was this article on the Spider-Man PS4 game that came out when it did. It caused a lot of stir online.
    https://theconcourse.deadspin.com/th...cks-1828944087

    It did strike me that the PS4 game made Spider-Man more pro-police than the comics or for that matter the Spider-Man 2000 Activision game (where there was an extended chase sequence of cops firing at Spider-Man and you crawling up a wall and avoiding police searchlights). Miles Morales' father becoming a police officer (which he wasn't in Bendis' original USM comics) in the PS4 game as well as ITSV is maybe more interesting in that regard. On the other hand, the latter third of the game has New York under a militarized Private Military Security Force who take on the more traditional anti-Police function so that part of the game does go into territory that's more familiar.


    In the comics, I think the most important issues to consider about Spider-Man and the police is ASM#91-92, the Sam Bullitt saga, which made Spider-Man an enemy and opponent to white supremacy and fought a corrupt and racist DA who campaigned on a "law and order" campaign (identified explicitly as a dog whistle).

    The most recent Spider-Man issue, ASM#43 by Nick Spencer in fact has a moment where Spider-Man finds himself on the other side of the law, and defends someone from a zealous trigger-happy police.
    I didn't find the PS4 dynamic all that different from the periods where Spider-Man has worked with the police.

  2. #17
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I didn't find the PS4 dynamic all that different from the periods where Spider-Man has worked with the police.
    It didn't pull me out of the story when I played it the first time, FWIW. It's just that Peter was overly nice with the police. Like the cops, and not just Watanabe, send him around to fix up and use cell towers to increase surveillance. In the end of The Dark Knight, Batman creates a cell-phone sonar relay system which he hands control over to Lucius Fox and they both point out its an ethical breach to use surveillance that powerful...in Spider-Man PS4, a similar system is erected without any moral qualms whatsoever.

    I think the PS4 game is pro-police because the Batman Arkham games are pro-police, with Aaron Cash, Jim Gordon, and so on. In the Arkham games, the issue is between cops as civil servants versus privatized military police represented by Tyger. So it was an interesting angle. And I think fundamentally it's because having cops as intermediary characters helps world-building and infomration setup happen in a very economical manner in action-adventure games.

    But maybe Insomniac Games will alter and fix that in the sequels. Having Spider-Man respected and liked by the police only to lose that in the sequels because of circumstances is a cool way to up the stakes and a great way to reintroduce classic core Spider-Man elements. Similar to how the stinger at the end of FFH is basically setting up a "Back to Basics" in the MCU Spider-Man movies.

  3. #18
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    It didn't pull me out of the story when I played it the first time, FWIW. It's just that Peter was overly nice with the police. Like the cops, and not just Watanabe, send him around to fix up and use cell towers to increase surveillance. In the end of The Dark Knight, Batman creates a cell-phone sonar relay system which he hands control over to Lucius Fox and they both point out its an ethical breach to use surveillance that powerful...in Spider-Man PS4, a similar system is erected without any moral qualms whatsoever.

    I think the PS4 game is pro-police because the Batman Arkham games are pro-police, with Aaron Cash, Jim Gordon, and so on. In the Arkham games, the issue is between cops as civil servants versus privatized military police represented by Tyger. So it was an interesting angle. And I think fundamentally it's because having cops as intermediary characters helps world-building and infomration setup happen in a very economical manner in action-adventure games.

    But maybe Insomniac Games will alter and fix that in the sequels. Having Spider-Man respected and liked by the police only to lose that in the sequels because of circumstances is a cool way to up the stakes and a great way to reintroduce classic core Spider-Man elements. Similar to how the stinger at the end of FFH is basically setting up a "Back to Basics" in the MCU Spider-Man movies.
    I honestly think you were reading way too into the presentation in the PS4 game.
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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Op needs to be split into more paragraphs.
    yeah my bad lol

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    There was this article on the Spider-Man PS4 game that came out when it did. It caused a lot of stir online.
    https://theconcourse.deadspin.com/th...cks-1828944087

    It did strike me that the PS4 game made Spider-Man more pro-police than the comics or for that matter the Spider-Man 2000 Activision game (where there was an extended chase sequence of cops firing at Spider-Man and you crawling up a wall and avoiding police searchlights). Miles Morales' father becoming a police officer (which he wasn't in Bendis' original USM comics) in the PS4 game as well as ITSV is maybe more interesting in that regard. On the other hand, the latter third of the game has New York under a militarized Private Military Security Force who take on the more traditional anti-Police function so that part of the game does go into territory that's more familiar.


    In the comics, I think the most important issues to consider about Spider-Man and the police is ASM#91-92, the Sam Bullitt saga, which made Spider-Man an enemy and opponent to white supremacy and fought a corrupt and racist DA who campaigned on a "law and order" campaign (identified explicitly as a dog whistle).

    The most recent Spider-Man issue, ASM#43 by Nick Spencer in fact has a moment where Spider-Man finds himself on the other side of the law, and defends someone from a zealous trigger-happy police.
    Superheroes frequently have allies among the police force and Spider-Man is no exception.

    There are much smarter takes on how to handle police corruption in fiction that don't boil down to "cops not chaotic evil orcs = game bad".

  6. #21
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    I honestly think you were reading way too into the presentation in the PS4 game.
    Perhaps. The videogame is the only version I could think of which made an issue of Spider-Man's relationship with the police in a contemporary context. That's why I brought it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Superheroes frequently have allies among the police force and Spider-Man is no exception.
    True.

    There are much smarter takes on how to handle police corruption in fiction that don't boil down to "cops not chaotic evil orcs = game bad".
    True. Not what I was suggesting as an alternative but true nonetheless.

  7. #22
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    Topics about police brutality can't be properly addressed in stories that revolve around a vigilante routinely breaking and entering and beating people up based on who he believes are guilty.

    Because we have an inside view into Peter's psyche, we know that, regardless of the situation or outcome, he means well. We don't have that kind of luxury with real-life police or people in general.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    Topics about police brutality can't be properly addressed in stories that revolve around a vigilante routinely breaking and entering and beating people up based on who he believes are guilty.

    Because we have an inside view into Peter's psyche, we know that, regardless of the situation or outcome, he means well. We don't have that kind of luxury with real-life police or people in general.
    That is 99%.999 true about Peter. The only times I really saw him lose it was Fisk over Aunt May, Brock, The Burglar, and Osborn in ASM 122. I think what saves Peter is he does not have the killer instinct ( like Daredevil, Blade or Punisher).

  9. #24
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    . But maybe Insomniac Games will alter and fix that in the sequels. Having Spider-Man respected and liked by the police only to lose that in the sequels because of circumstances is a cool way to up the stakes and a great way to reintroduce classic core Spider-Man elements. Similar to how the stinger at the end of FFH is basically setting up a "Back to Basics" in the MCU Spider-Man movies.
    I think the dynamic is definitely going to be changed because Watanabe is gone. I figure that's how they'll work Captain Stacy in.

    I don't know if they'll do an about-face on Spider-Man's reputation since that's kind of what the endgame of the PS4 game was about.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think the dynamic is definitely going to be changed because Watanabe is gone. I figure that's how they'll work Captain Stacy in.

    I don't know if they'll do an about-face on Spider-Man's reputation since that's kind of what the endgame of the PS4 game was about.
    unless they do Jean DeWolfe and then have her get killed by Sin Eater.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rzerox21xx View Post
    unless they do Jean DeWolfe and then have her get killed by Sin Eater.
    I figure with Captain Stacy they can work Gwen in, though.

  12. #27
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    Overall this is the challenge with the real world intersecting superheroes' world. Whenever police are brought into a story, its going to blatantly expose inconsistencies with comics in general and why they don't depict realism. The inconsistency is glaring when you think about it. Cops are normal people trying to do a job that is very difficult under most circumstances. They get traumatized, they see things no one should see, they get cynical. Cops are specifically trained to deal with situations most people wouldn't deal with for any amount of money.

    Vigilantes of any kind are not a cop's friend. They are not welcome, under any circumstances, even if they happen to do the right thing. Police make mistakes but they are able to be held accountable for them, they have a badge number and a name, as opposed to someone like Spider-Man. They can't just swing off and leave someone else to bat clean up.

    If comics were more realistic, heroes would be more human and deal with the exact same issues as cops do. You do see attempts to make heroes more realistic in some comics series and they pretty much always end in tragedy or at least feature tragedy as a major theme. More recently, the topic of mental health was tackled in Heroes in Crisis, and we all know how well that was received and how well that one ended.

    Comics are the escape, police are the reality. So its just always going to be tricky to depict someone as unnatural and out there as Spider-Man in a cop's world.
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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Overall this is the challenge with the real world intersecting superheroes' world. Whenever police are brought into a story, its going to blatantly expose inconsistencies with comics in general and why they don't depict realism. The inconsistency is glaring when you think about it. Cops are normal people trying to do a job that is very difficult under most circumstances. They get traumatized, they see things no one should see, they get cynical. Cops are specifically trained to deal with situations most people wouldn't deal with for any amount of money.

    Vigilantes of any kind are not a cop's friend. They are not welcome, under any circumstances, even if they happen to do the right thing. Police make mistakes but they are able to be held accountable for them, they have a badge number and a name, as opposed to someone like Spider-Man. They can't just swing off and leave someone else to bat clean up.

    If comics were more realistic, heroes would be more human and deal with the exact same issues as cops do. You do see attempts to make heroes more realistic in some comics series and they pretty much always end in tragedy or at least feature tragedy as a major theme. More recently, the topic of mental health was tackled in Heroes in Crisis, and we all know how well that was received and how well that one ended.

    Comics are the escape, police are the reality. So its just always going to be tricky to depict someone as unnatural and out there as Spider-Man in a cop's world.
    There was nothing realistic about Heroes in Crisis, it's handling of mental illness chief among them.

  14. #29
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Overall this is the challenge with the real world intersecting superheroes' world. Whenever police are brought into a story, its going to blatantly expose inconsistencies with comics in general and why they don't depict realism. The inconsistency is glaring when you think about it. Cops are normal people trying to do a job that is very difficult under most circumstances. They get traumatized, they see things no one should see, they get cynical. Cops are specifically trained to deal with situations most people wouldn't deal with for any amount of money.

    Vigilantes of any kind are not a cop's friend. They are not welcome, under any circumstances, even if they happen to do the right thing. Police make mistakes but they are able to be held accountable for them, they have a badge number and a name, as opposed to someone like Spider-Man. They can't just swing off and leave someone else to bat clean up.

    If comics were more realistic, heroes would be more human and deal with the exact same issues as cops do. You do see attempts to make heroes more realistic in some comics series and they pretty much always end in tragedy or at least feature tragedy as a major theme. More recently, the topic of mental health was tackled in Heroes in Crisis, and we all know how well that was received and how well that one ended.

    Comics are the escape, police are the reality. So its just always going to be tricky to depict someone as unnatural and out there as Spider-Man in a cop's world.
    Well, I think the ideal is the police and vigilante's working together to fight crime. As much as Superheroes work outside the law they kind of rely on legitimate law enforcement to arrest and apprehend the villains or criminals they stop.

  15. #30
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Well, I think the ideal is the police and vigilante's working together to fight crime. As much as Superheroes work outside the law they kind of rely on legitimate law enforcement to arrest and apprehend the villains or criminals they stop.
    That's my preference. I like when both are able to work together where they can be in in their respective areas.
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