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  1. #106
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Well Iron Man had a full face covering mask too and until the 2000s his identity was a public secret. Daredevil also has a mask and he's not as hounded-by-police as Spider-Man is.

    Spider-Man being a masked figure was important because a lot of African-Americans related to him, and the stories of Spider-Man being scapegoated by the media and police obviously resonated with them strongly.



    Maybe if Spider-Man strictly operated in ghettoes and attacked minorities, he would have better relations. I think the fact Spider-Man went around stopping crime in Manhattan and other tony areas and that his villains tend to be old white dudes (the kind who tend to be lawyerd up) probably adds to a sense of why the police feel they have to go after him more than others.



    Well as we discussed earlier, in real law that wouldn't be how it went down. The comics use that angle to create drama but it's more a story convention (to recycle villains and threats) than any realistic attempt at the downsides of vigilantism. Christos Gage pointed out that in life Charles Manson was arrested, went to jail, and died. But in comics, a Manson-like villain would roam around and escape justice in unrealistic ways.
    Good criticisms Jack.

  2. #107
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    Peter should be a cop.

  3. #108
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpideyCeo View Post
    Peter should be a cop.
    It would make Steve Ditko proud at the very least. Ditko in his uber-right wing phase was obsessed with police and law and order. He once talked to Peter Morisi (best known for creating Thunderbolt for Charlton Comics, on whom Alan Moore based Ozymandias) who was a policeman who moonlighted as a comics writer. Apparently Ditko was so fixated on police life and the details of when cops killed bad guys, that it creeped out Morisi.

  4. #109
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpideyCeo View Post
    Peter should be a cop.
    Well, MC2 Peter was a CSI, so technically one.

  5. #110
    Mighty Member Spider-Chan's Avatar
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    There's also Earth-X, he is a straight up cop.

  6. #111
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    In Dan Slott's run, Peter worked in the NY-CSI too. As did Carlie (who is still a cop since she apparently transferrd to New Orleans). Slott's run was pretty pro-cop in a lot of respects.

  7. #112
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Maybe if Spider-Man strictly operated in ghettoes and attacked minorities, he would have better relations. I think the fact Spider-Man went around stopping crime in Manhattan and other tony areas and that his villains tend to be old white dudes (the kind who tend to be lawyerd up) probably adds to a sense of why the police feel they have to go after him more than others.
    I think you're looking for something to be a racist issue in a place where it simply doesn't exist.

    Also, as far as Spider-man being a cop goes, just going to post this ....


  8. #113
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    I think you're looking for something to be a racist issue in a place where it simply doesn't exist.
    It's precisely where it seems to not exist where racist issues flourish underneath.

    Stan Lee himself wrote and defined Spider-Man as an opponent to "law and order" dog-whistle policies to white supremacy in ASM#91-92.

    So this stuff is canon and central to the comics in terms of an issue.

  9. #114
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    In Dan Slott's run, Peter worked in the NY-CSI too. As did Carlie (who is still a cop since she apparently transferrd to New Orleans). Slott's run was pretty pro-cop in a lot of respects.
    No more then most Superhero comics, to be honest. I mean, Watanabe was a good officer (until Conway had her go bad) but that's not exactly unheard of in the book. He did write Carlie's dad being dirty, so...

    I don't think he actually worked as a CSI so much as he helped Carlie.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    I think you're looking for something to be a racist issue in a place where it simply doesn't exist.

    Also, as far as Spider-man being a cop goes, just going to post this ....

    Never forget Spider-Cop .

  10. #115
    Fantastic Member Spidey5640's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    It's precisely where it seems to not exist where racist issues flourish underneath.

    Stan Lee himself wrote and defined Spider-Man as an opponent to "law and order" dog-whistle policies to white supremacy in ASM#91-92.

    So this stuff is canon and central to the comics in terms of an issue.
    I wonder if it's racist to see it everywhere just to fit your own worldview?

  11. #116
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Never forget Spider-Cop .
    That gag won't be there in the sequel, I think.

  12. #117
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spidey5640 View Post
    I wonder if it's racist to see it everywhere just to fit your own worldview?
    I'd say it's pretty racist.

    The guy is straight up saying that Spider-man is targeted by the police just because of he attacks white criminals and not black people. This assumes automatically assumes negative racial motivations to various characters (and writers for that matter.)

    Especially because this isn't really an idea that's used anywhere in the comics.
    MAYBE one or two issues out of 5000 or so comics Spider-man has appeared in have used the idea, but it's hardly a theme.

    I mean, you can find one or two issues where Spider-man eats people. That doesn't mean cannibalism is a major issue in Spider-man books.

  13. #118
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    That gag won't be there in the sequel, I think.
    I mean, it really wouldn't make sense to.

    It was an in-joke between Peter and Watanabe and now that she's gone bad it just wouldn't work and it doesn't make sense for Miles to use (even though his dad was police).

  14. #119
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    The guy is straight up saying that Spider-man is targeted by the police just because of he attacks white criminals and not black people. This assumes automatically assumes negative racial motivations to various characters (and writers for that matter.)
    A) I was discussing ideas with the CBR poster jackolover. So you might want to consider the overall back and forth of our discussion before cherry-picking this and making a fuss out of it (Also a old post made 2 weeks ago).

    B) We are discussing, as is the entire thread, what the social subtext of Spider-Man's interactions with police can actually imply. This is also a topic that as is clear in the podcast I linked before that African-American fans of Spider-Man are interested in. So when I say that Spider-Man's bad relations to the police can be traced to his villains being "old white guys" I meant that in terms of subtext. Subtext is stuff that is not directly there or even intended by the stories, or a lot of cases even conscious by the creators. It should go without saying that I did not mean that literally (and indeed since nobody responded to that comment for 2 weeks, everybody understood that point).

    C) It's a historical fact that Spider-Man as a hero in the classic era was genuinely popular with African-Americans, that's why Stan Lee in the Romita era, introduced greater diversity in the supporting cast (Robbie Robertson, his son Randy, Hobie Brown Prowler). And part of the reason can definitely be traced to the fact that his hostile relationship with the police echoed their experiences. Stan Lee wrote an entire 2 part issue addressing that fact, ASM#91-92. So again, as a Spider-Man comics nerd, this is very much part of the character's history and well worth discussing.

    Especially because this isn't really an idea that's used anywhere in the comics.
    MAYBE one or two issues out of 5000 or so comics Spider-man has appeared in have used the idea, but it's hardly a theme.
    The theme of Spider-Man being opposed by the police and so on is a constant and regular one in the comics picked up by different creators. And a lot of writers have featured social commentary and connections in their runs. Gerry Conway had Spider-Man defend the plight of undocumented immigrants and refugees both in his original run and his Spectacular/WoS run in the 80s. PAD tackled the question of violence in The Death of Jean deWolff. JMS had Spider-Man work as a teacher to a poorly funded high school and opposed him with Ezekiel who has used his powers to gain wealth but without any satisfaction and real happiness which Peter has. Mark Millar in Marvel Knights Spider-Man put forth the idea, via Scorpion, that Spider-Man's rogues gallery were funded by American corporations as a way to keep him busy and distracted from tackling the oligarchy.

  15. #120
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    A) I was discussing ideas with the CBR poster jackolover. So you might want to consider the overall back and forth of our discussion before cherry-picking this and making a fuss out of it (Also a old post made 2 weeks ago).

    B) We are discussing, as is the entire thread, what the social subtext of Spider-Man's interactions with police can actually imply. This is also a topic that as is clear in the podcast I linked before that African-American fans of Spider-Man are interested in. So when I say that Spider-Man's bad relations to the police can be traced to his villains being "old white guys" I meant that in terms of subtext. Subtext is stuff that is not directly there or even intended by the stories, or a lot of cases even conscious by the creators. It should go without saying that I did not mean that literally (and indeed since nobody responded to that comment for 2 weeks, everybody understood that point).

    C) It's a historical fact that Spider-Man as a hero in the classic era was genuinely popular with African-Americans, that's why Stan Lee in the Romita era, introduced greater diversity in the supporting cast (Robbie Robertson, his son Randy, Hobie Brown Prowler). And part of the reason can definitely be traced to the fact that his hostile relationship with the police echoed their experiences. Stan Lee wrote an entire 2 part issue addressing that fact, ASM#91-92. So again, as a Spider-Man comics nerd, this is very much part of the character's history and well worth discussing.



    The theme of Spider-Man being opposed by the police and so on is a constant and regular one in the comics picked up by different creators. And a lot of writers have featured social commentary and connections in their runs. Gerry Conway had Spider-Man defend the plight of undocumented immigrants and refugees both in his original run and his Spectacular/WoS run in the 80s. PAD tackled the question of violence in The Death of Jean deWolff. JMS had Spider-Man work as a teacher to a poorly funded high school and opposed him with Ezekiel who has used his powers to gain wealth but without any satisfaction and real happiness which Peter has. Mark Millar in Marvel Knights Spider-Man put forth the idea, via Scorpion, that Spider-Man's rogues gallery were funded by American corporations as a way to keep him busy and distracted from tackling the oligarchy.
    Technically, it wasn't just Spider-Man's rogues gallery being funded and equipped by corrupt corporate collusion, but many of the rogues faced by the first modern superheroes in general. That said, you do raise a lot of great points.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

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