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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post

    In real-life, ordinary civilians and others do investigate crimes or interfere with it. They are called journalists. Stuff like the Catholic Church abuse scandals, and more recently the arrests of Harvey Weinstein and others, came from journalists rather than cops. Bill Cosby was brought down because another comedian made a crack about cases that were swept under the rug but went viral on social media. And ultimately that started a movement that led to Cosby and Weinstein going to jail.
    There is a difference between journalists writing exposes on sexual abuse cases being swept under the rug and unaccountable vigilantes engaging in public, dangerous brawls (and remember that not every person a superhero fights is a villain).



    "Realistically" Spider-Man would not exist because you don't get bitten by a spider and get spiders as some rather unfortunate children recently found out (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a9538491.html).

    And the Punisher would have been caught and imprisoned after his first or second shooting. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't call out the Punisher for pushing a false narrative about vigilantes when superheroes have been doing that since inception.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    There is a difference between journalists writing exposes on sexual abuse cases being swept under the rug
    Fact is both are civilians investigating crimes. And journalists likewise depend on sources from independent private parties and others who collect notes and stuff. The evidence unearthed by journalists would not be discounted by prosecutors simply because it was gathered by journalists rather than police investigators. Ultimately yeah, the journalistic evidence needs to be mediated and vetted by the police before being admitted as evidence in the court of law, but the fact is the police can use that evidence, DA can use

    Same with Spider-Man, him fighting and stopping bad guys would not in anyway by itself halt or hinder police investigations. All a cop has to say, "Look Spidey's a crook, this guy he caught is a crook, the fact that the weaker crook lost doesn't mean I don't get to send him to jail".

    ...and unaccountable vigilantes engaging in public, dangerous brawls (and remember that not every person a superhero fights is a villain).
    Well, when Firelord comes in and decides to start torching city blocks because he wants a pizza, and Spider-Man's on call to try and contain that, I don't think you can reasonably hold Spider-Man at fault for engaging in a fight. Remember that in the case of Spider-Man, most of his villains, and especially the Lee-Ditko villains, exist independently apart from him with no connection whatsoever. With or without Spider-Man, Electro would be Electro, The Sandman would be The Sandman, Doctor Octopus would be Doctor Octopus, Green Goblin would be Green Goblin.

    And the Punisher would have been caught and imprisoned after his first or second shooting. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't call out the Punisher for pushing a false narrative about vigilantes when superheroes have been doing that since inception.
    We aren't in danger of a dude with Spider-Powers and adhesive webbing swinging around New York stopping crime.

    We are in danger of a dude with a stash of guns going around exercising his right to bear arms and mowing down those he think are evil by the hundreds.

    Same with superhero satires. We aren't in danger of superheroes or super-teams having too much power and influence that they can dislodge governments and take over the world. We are however in danger of excessive militarization of police.

    Not all characters and stories and stuff are created equal. The genre does matter, the props do matter, the story do matter.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Superheroes by their very nature don't exist. Powers in comics are just metaphors for different talents/skills. I mean, if you're going to be that literal, you might as well say they're not ordinary because they don't age.
    Metaphor only goes so far. See the X-Men and the problems with mutants as stand ins for minorities.

    Jameson by no means is an ordinary guy. He represents the Establishment Media. He is all about sensationalism and greed. The Jameson from Nick Spencer's run is an anomaly and not the norm.
    Yeah, I said as much in my post.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Fact is both are civilians investigating crimes. And journalists likewise depend on sources from independent private parties and others who collect notes and stuff. The evidence unearthed by journalists would not be discounted by prosecutors simply because it was gathered by journalists rather than police investigators. Ultimately yeah, the journalistic evidence needs to be mediated and vetted by the police before being admitted as evidence in the court of law, but the fact is the police can use that evidence, DA can use

    Same with Spider-Man, him fighting and stopping bad guys would not in anyway by itself halt or hinder police investigations. All a cop has to say, "Look Spidey's a crook, this guy he caught is a crook, the fact that the weaker crook lost doesn't mean I don't get to send him to jail".
    They'd have to prove the other guys is a crook first.


    Well, when Firelord comes in and decides to start torching city blocks because he wants a pizza, and Spider-Man's on call to try and contain that, I don't think you can reasonably hold Spider-Man at fault for engaging in a fight. Remember that in the case of Spider-Man, most of his villains, and especially the Lee-Ditko villains, exist independently apart from him with no connection whatsoever. With or without Spider-Man, Electro would be Electro, The Sandman would be The Sandman, Doctor Octopus would be Doctor Octopus, Green Goblin would be Green Goblin.
    I'll have to remember this the next time someone starts whining about the destruction in MoS being all Superman's fault. However, this isn't just what I am talking about. I'm talking about stuff like superheroes turning an entire area into a war zone over a dispute. I'm talking about the number of times superheroes engage torture, intimidation, illegal entry and even blackmail which police officers have also been criticized for doing. I'm talking about the number of times heroes turn a blind eye to a villain's actions so they can be allies. Property damage is really just the tip of the ice berg.


    We aren't in danger of a dude with Spider-Powers and adhesive webbing swinging around New York stopping crime.

    We are in danger of a dude with a stash of guns going around exercising his right to bear arms and mowing down those he think are evil by the hundreds.

    Same with superhero satires. We aren't in danger of superheroes or super-teams having too much power and influence that they can dislodge governments and take over the world. We are however in danger of excessive militarization of police.

    Not all characters and stories and stuff are created equal. The genre does matter, the props do matter, the story do matter.
    Just recently, a guy in Salt Lake City decided to do an impression of Hawkeye in Endgame by attacking protesters with a machete and a bow and arrow. The methods by which they do it may be fantastical but at the end of the day superheroes are vigilantes who operate without oversight and as we have seen in real life this can have disastrous effects whether it is with a gun, a knife, a machete, a bow or even a cell phone.

    Look at the Jedi in Star Wars. We don't have psychic warrior monks with laser blades in real life but that didn't stop people pointing out the corruption and distance from the common man they displayed in the prequel era.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Having unaccountable vigilantes with no proper law enforcement training and at times questionable stability will result in casualties regardless of whether or not said vigilantes have a rule against killing. Realistically, Spider-Man would have an even bigger body count than the Punisher.
    Spider-Man's powerset and fighting style favor minimal casualties. His webbing is non-lethal with multiple applications, including stopping debris from hitting civilians. He moves quickly and draws attention to himself that might otherwise be directed at civilians.

    The Punisher has the arsenal of a small country and is dedicated to killing. You can't continually use machine guns and rocket launchers in the streets and expect no one innocent to get caught in the crossfire.

    Just to be clear, I'm not arguing the point that vigilantism wouldn't result in some casualties regardless of intent, but it's a lot easier for me to suspend disbelief with regard to Spider-Man given his mindset and abilities than the Punisher. And Frank tends to bring things a bit closer to 'the real world.'

    There have been a few comics that dealt with casualties, like the time Spider-Man instinctively dodged a shot from the Sin Eater and someone in the crowd took the bullet.
    Last edited by David Walton; 06-03-2020 at 08:13 AM.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Metaphor only goes so far. See the X-Men and the problems with mutants as stand ins for minorities.
    I have a question to ask. Do you actually like superhero stories or find them valuable? Because you post as if you have an entirely negative and dark view of the genre and characters. I can be wrong of course but that's the impression I am getting. I'd like you to clarify this at any rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    They'd have to prove the other guys is a crook first.
    Which would not be hard. The majority of incidents where Spider-Man intervenes there are civilian witnesses at hand who have been robbed or mugged "when he arrives/just in time".

    I'll have to remember this the next time someone starts whining about the destruction in MoS being all Superman's fault.
    In the case of Man of Steel, it's not "all" Superman's fault since Zod attacked first, but Superman clearly acts recklessly and doesn't try and contain the property damage which isn't the case at all in the Spider-Man v. Firelord battle. In the case of Superman he and Zod are clearly evenly matched on power scale whereas in Spider-Man v. Firelord, one guy is a Herald of Galactus with Fire Powers to burn stuff into cinders and the other is a guy who dodges really fast and has webs. Again this isn't one size fits all, it differs case by case. Also how a story is presented and framed. Zack Snyder frames Superman v. Zod as two gods unveiling themselves to Earth in an orgy of destruction redolent of 9/11 imagery, whereas most Spider-Man fights are framed as a powerful figure of balanced tools and abilities fighting someone even more powerful and dangerous, and usually armed. In a fight between Spider-man and Electro, the dude who sends sparks flying around and overloading the power is clearly far more dangerous and damaging than the webbing dude. Same with Green Goblin (glider who drops bombs and blade-winged bat-drones), Doctor Octopus with his powerful metallic arms and usually armed with dangerous robots and other stuff.

    I'm talking about stuff like superheroes turning an entire area into a war zone over a dispute.
    You mean times superheroes fight each other. Well those are glorified bar brawls. That can cause some damage but that's not really representative of superhero stories.

    Just recently, a guy in Salt Lake City decided to do an impression of Hawkeye in Endgame by attacking protesters with a machete and a bow and arrow.
    When has Barton used a "machete" and did that guy actually cite Hawkeye?

    Look at the Jedi in Star Wars. We don't have psychic warrior monks with laser blades in real life but that didn't stop people pointing out the corruption and distance from the common man they displayed in the prequel era.
    Did anyone who saw the prequels came away thinking that the Jedi are people to emulate? That Anakin was someone to emulate? Because that's something that the movies dial down against big time.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Metaphor only goes so far. See the X-Men and the problems with mutants as stand ins for minorities.
    False equivalence. The mutant metaphor was made up at a time they couldn't use actual minorities.

    The superhero metaphor isn't a substitute metaphor like mutants were. The superhero metaphor is an exaggeration of real-life talents/skills.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I have a question to ask. Do you actually like superhero stories or find them valuable?
    Yes.



    In the case of Man of Steel, it's not "all" Superman's fault since Zod attacked first, but Superman clearly acts recklessly and doesn't try and contain the property damage which isn't the case at all in the Spider-Man v. Firelord battle. In the case of Superman he and Zod are clearly evenly matched on power scale whereas in Spider-Man v. Firelord, one guy is a Herald of Galactus with Fire Powers to burn stuff into cinders and the other is a guy who dodges really fast and has webs.
    Spider-Man defeats Fire-Lord in a curb stomp battle. The only reason the fight is over so quickly is because the story presents a clear power difference between Spidey and Fire-Lord. And yes, Clark does try to contain the damage when he takes the fight to outer space. However, Zod, who is the more experienced combatant of the two, clearly has an easier time taking control of the fight than a guy who up until this moment never threw a punch in his life.

    You mean times superheroes fight each other. Well those are glorified bar brawls. That can cause some damage but that's not really representative of superhero stories.
    Superheroes fighting before teaming up is so common it's practically a running gag. We have multiple stories of superheroes tearing the world apart because of their arguments. Marvel in particular is infamous for this. If you're going to present these guys as some better alternative to the corrupt police maybe try avoiding writing them as being as irresponsible as police.



    When has Barton used a "machete" and did that guy actually cite Hawkeye?
    It's a guy using a bow and arrow and a bladed weapon to attack people he doesn't like. This is the same crap Hawkeye was doing in Endgame that people criticized. If we're going to compare the Punisher to every real life mass shooter just because he uses guns then this is fair game.


    Did anyone who saw the prequels came away thinking that the Jedi are people to emulate? That Anakin was someone to emulate? Because that's something that the movies dial down against big time.
    Yes. The Star Wars fandom is particularly notorious for having people side with villainous or morally questionable characters in spite of what the narrative states.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    False equivalence. The mutant metaphor was made up at a time they couldn't use actual minorities.

    The superhero metaphor isn't a substitute metaphor like mutants were. The superhero metaphor is an exaggeration of real-life talents/skills.
    Tomayto, tomahto.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 06-03-2020 at 08:26 AM.

  9. #84
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    And again, superheroes have a billion dollar movie franchise. Cops do not. Of course one is going to be skewered more because they're at the top, so to speak.

  10. #85

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    (OP).... another reason that Christopher Priest deserves a chance to write an extended arc for Spider-Man (Peter).

  11. #86
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    A great episode of Amazing Spider-Talk where Mark and Dan talk to Brian Jacob (The Ultimate Spin) and Donovan Morgan Grant (Questions: We Don't Have Answers), longtime active Spider-Man fans. They talk about Spider-Man and race issues, Spider-Man and police issues, how Brian and Donovan, as two black fans feel about Spider-Man comics and the history of representation and real issues. Basically cover what we all have been discussing in some detail on this thread.

    Highlights include:
    -- Discussing Miles Morales and how Bendis and Saladin Ahmed portrayed him and ITSV.
    -- ASM#91-92 the Sam Bullitt two-parter as a classic that holds up for denouncing white supremacy.
    -- ASM#21 Annual where MJ's wedding dress was made by a gay African-American fashion designer Willi Smith as another major moment of representation.
    -- The fact that Spider-Man's supporting cast could use more diversity on the whole.
    -- Issues with the Rocket Racer character and Len Wein's run, as well as parts of Conway's run.
    -- The Punisher is plainly irredemable even if Brian Jacob admits he was a fan of the character growing up.

    The episode is going to donate revenue to the Black Lives Matter movement, and they left a link below and I will repost it here in case anyone wants to donate there.
    https://blacklivesmatters.carrd.co/

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypestyle View Post
    (OP).... another reason that Christopher Priest deserves a chance to write an extended arc for Spider-Man (Peter).
    Yeah, that would be pretty cool to see, though given Priest's tendencies to delve deep into moral gray zones and somewhat deconstruct highly idealized characters held up as paragons of heroism --- often depicting them as naive, self-righteous, and out of touch with the realities experienced and endured by "real people" --- I could see him putting Spidey/Peter through a hell of a wringer in the process.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post


    A great episode of Amazing Spider-Talk where Mark and Dan talk to Brian Jacob (The Ultimate Spin) and Donovan Morgan Grant (Questions: We Don't Have Answers), longtime active Spider-Man fans. They talk about Spider-Man and race issues, Spider-Man and police issues, how Brian and Donovan, as two black fans feel about Spider-Man comics and the history of representation and real issues. Basically cover what we all have been discussing in some detail on this thread.

    Highlights include:
    -- Discussing Miles Morales and how Bendis and Saladin Ahmed portrayed him and ITSV.
    -- ASM#91-92 the Sam Bullitt two-parter as a classic that holds up for denouncing white supremacy.
    -- ASM#21 Annual where MJ's wedding dress was made by a gay African-American fashion designer Willi Smith as another major moment of representation.
    -- The fact that Spider-Man's supporting cast could use more diversity on the whole.
    -- Issues with the Rocket Racer character and Len Wein's run, as well as parts of Conway's run.
    -- The Punisher is plainly irredemable even if Brian Jacob admits he was a fan of the character growing up.

    The episode is going to donate revenue to the Black Lives Matter movement, and they left a link below and I will repost it here in case anyone wants to donate there.
    https://blacklivesmatters.carrd.co/
    Thanks for sharing this. This is excellent stuff.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Thanks for sharing this. This is excellent stuff.
    Another interesting thing about Bendis which they discuss and something that I didn't know until now...

    Apparently Ganke's name was something Bendis just cooked out of thin air. He intended the character to be Korean-American but Ganke is not an actual Korean name. He apparently misheard his daughter describe a classmate as "Genki" and thought it was an actual name of a classmate and that led to Ganke. And it stuck.*

    Both Brian and Donovan also had issues with Holland's Peter appropriating Miles Morales and they feel that Miles' status as the "young Spider-Man" (younger than Peter when he was bitten, and younger than both the Ultimate and 616 Peter when he became Spider-man and met both versions).


    * Ganke's naming patterns while somewhat problematic in terms of Bendis' practises and blithe assumptions (which both podcasters do take turns criticizing in terms of Bendis' run on Miles' comic Post-SW2015) is not far from Marvel's usual naming patterns. A Roma boy with an aristocratic name like "Victor von Doom" is a good example, as is Erik Lehnsherr (which isn't a real name, Lehnsherr is a German title of a feudal lord), and more recently Kamala Khan, a Pakistani girl having a Sanskrit Indian surname of Kamala which means lotus flower (her co-creators assumed that the Arab male name of Kamal has an automatic female form and since they thought that Kamala is a South Asian name it was directly a feminine form of Kamal, which in Urdu means "awesome").

  14. #89
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    It's funny. I get a lot of flak whenever I bring up how much the MCU appropriated from Miles. I mean, from my experience, this opinion is dismissed most of the time as a nitpick.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 06-04-2020 at 05:39 PM.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Another interesting thing about Bendis which they discuss and something that I didn't know until now...

    Apparently Ganke's name was something Bendis just cooked out of thin air. He intended the character to be Korean-American but Ganke is not an actual Korean name. He apparently misheard his daughter describe a classmate as "Genki" and thought it was an actual name of a classmate and that led to Ganke. And it stuck.*

    Both Brian and Donovan also had issues with Holland's Peter appropriating Miles Morales and they feel that Miles' status as the "young Spider-Man" (younger than Peter when he was bitten, and younger than both the Ultimate and 616 Peter when he became Spider-man and met both versions).


    * Ganke's naming patterns while somewhat problematic in terms of Bendis' practises and blithe assumptions (which both podcasters do take turns criticizing in terms of Bendis' run on Miles' comic Post-SW2015) is not far from Marvel's usual naming patterns. A Roma boy with an aristocratic name like "Victor von Doom" is a good example, as is Erik Lehnsherr (which isn't a real name, Lehnsherr is a German title of a feudal lord), and more recently Kamala Khan, a Pakistani girl having a Sanskrit Indian surname of Kamala which means lotus flower (her co-creators assumed that the Arab male name of Kamal has an automatic female form and since they thought that Kamala is a South Asian name it was directly a feminine form of Kamal, which in Urdu means "awesome").
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    It's funny. I get a lot of flak whenever I bring up how much the MCU appropriated from Miles. I mean, from my experience, this opinion is dismissed most of the time as a nitpick.
    Yeah, I can actually see that argument, especially with MCU's version of Ned Leeds.
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