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  1. #76
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    I'm not from the United States, out of curiosity. Are CIA agents considered cops?
    Nope. They're part of the USA's law enforcement but it's more behind the scenes stuff.
    "Cable was right!"

  2. #77
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    Nope. They're part of the USA's law enforcement but it's more behind the scenes stuff.
    Oh, I thought Wolverine's detective was from the CIA. I guess I was confused.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    Don't really keep track of the non-important background characters but the detective in the recent Wolverine series is a good cop.

    Someone also mentioned the flatscan guy Dani was working with in New Mutants vol. 2.

    funny you mentioned him, he had anti-mutant feelings who had a sympathetic backstory of a child who has a terminal illness but was willing to work with Logan(Logan of course had to throw his garbage at his lawn that he just finished showing off to Logan with a reaction "REALLY"), you would think Logan would know better than to prove this guy that Mutants are assholes.

  4. #79
    Mugga, please. xhx23x's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purplevit View Post
    This is just... pretty on point.

  5. #80
    Astonishing Member mikeb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    I'm not from the United States, out of curiosity. Are CIA agents considered cops?
    No. The CIA has no police powers. They are strictly an intelligence arm. The FBI, on the other hand, does have police powers.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclops_was_right View Post
    This we will never know because AvX never shows any people actually being killed by DarkPhoenix!Cyclops or being brought from the dead by Hope.

    But even if they had been killed in the fires, how is Scott Summers in the right state of mind responsible for that? Are we going to blame X-23 for killing people when someone releases the scent that makes her kill people? I mean basically Tony Stark accidentally drugged Cyclops and the other P5 with the Phoenix Force. A force of destruction and rebirth which almost nobody in the Marvel world would be able to resist if they had thrust it upon them.
    well in the X-23 book cap basically did blame X-23 for all the deaths and wanted to arrest her and hold her accountable for it, and daredevil had to be the voice of reason.

    Of course he let her go in the end to meet wolverine, but then on the way she got kidnapped and turned into a child prostitute. So not great.

  7. #82
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclops_was_right View Post
    This we will never know because AvX never shows any people actually being killed by DarkPhoenix!Cyclops or being brought from the dead by Hope.

    But even if they had been killed in the fires, how is Scott Summers in the right state of mind responsible for that? Are we going to blame X-23 for killing people when someone releases the scent that makes her kill people? I mean basically Tony Stark accidentally drugged Cyclops and the other P5 with the Phoenix Force. A force of destruction and rebirth which almost nobody in the Marvel world would be able to resist if they had thrust it upon them.
    That doesnt matter to the victims who want justice. If someone caused the death of your loved ones and you learn that person was high at the time, do you honestly feel like you would be okay if they were free to walk away right after it happened? Most people would want retribution and maybe in time they might be able to let that go and offer forgiveness, but not in the immediate aftermath when the wounds are still fresh.

    Cyclops needed to be arrested and put on trial after what he did to the world in a very public display of rage. Its not like anyone could even hide it if they wanted to. He had a good defense to get him off but there was a multiple of errors after he was placed in prison. The act of apprehending him wasnt the problem though
    Last edited by Havok83; 06-01-2020 at 01:49 PM.

  8. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    That doesnt matter to the victims who want justice. If someone caused the death of your loved ones and you learn that person was high at the time, do you honestly feel like you would be okay if they were free to walk away right after it happened? Most people would want retribution and maybe in time they might be able to let that go and offer forgiveness, but not in the immediate aftermath when the wounds are still fresh.

    Cyclops needed to be arrested and put on trial after what he did to the world in a very public display of rage. Its not like anyone could even hide it if they wanted to. He had a good defense to get him off but there was a multiple of errors after he was placed in prison. The act of apprehending him wasnt the problem though
    I don't think that the situation he was in can be compared to real life , but you're making it sound like he chose to be high on the Phoenix force. If this theoretical person were high because someone had drugged them against their will and they were no longer able to control themselves, I would feel about it differently than if it were someone who chose to abuse drugs themselves (though I know that in case we're talking about addiction it's also a complicated matter).

    As for him needing to be arrested and put on trial that's fair only if all the other superheroes who had ever commited a wrong under mind control or other outside influence were always also put to the same standard and I don't think they were, or were they? I mean obviously morally by our world's standard having him stand a fair trial is the correct thing to do. But if in the Marvel world superheroes generally don't face this kind of consequence when they do something similar, but when it comes to mutants they suddenly do it does seem like discrimination.

  9. #84
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclops_was_right View Post
    I don't think that the situation he was in can be compared to real life , but you're making it sound like he chose to be high on the Phoenix force. If this theoretical person were high because someone had drugged them against their will and they were no longer able to control themselves, I would feel about it differently than if it were someone who chose to abuse drugs themselves (though I know that in case we're talking about addiction it's also a complicated matter).

    As for him needing to be arrested and put on trial that's fair only if all the other superheroes who had ever commited a wrong under mind control or other outside influence were always also put to the same standard and I don't think they were, or were they? I mean obviously morally by our world's standard having him stand a fair trial is the correct thing to do. But if in the Marvel world superheroes generally don't face this kind of consequence when they do something similar, but when it comes to mutants they suddenly do it does seem like discrimination.
    You brought up the drugging scenario which is why I based my comment on him being high. The circumstances dont matter to a person that is grieving. Some people never get over an offense dont to them and for those that do, it takes time

    Most heroes that are influenced to do things are usually self contained and its easy enough to cover up. Scott's rampage in AvX was far too big and global to ignore. Theoretically there would have been tons of countries wanting his head had he not been apprehended. He was only in jail for a couple of weeks. He put other mutants in prison for far less than what he did. Does that make him a hypocrite for apprehending and caging them?

  10. #85
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    i think any death caused by phoenix should be chalked up to "Act of God"

    Yes, the avengers did split up the phoenix, but they had no choice, they had to stop it somehow and the device didn't actually work how it was intended. On the Utopia side, cylcops was betting it on Hope being ready, but she was not, atleast not without all of her lights, which was not possible at the time. When the phoenix entered them, it's basically slowly corrupting them to be worse and worse in a way beyond their control and the avengers had to effectively start to train hope when they had a way so they captured her.

    Xavier's more responsible for his own demise, as callous as that sounds. He knew the risks and went in to fight cyclops, knowing he was unstable.

  11. #86
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    Most of O*N*E, SHIELD and general Marvel Universe Government forces are rotten in the comics. Val was the exception alongside a few others. The rest of them were mass producing Sentinels, vaccines or shooting at innocent mutants when their powers manifested.

    And the New Tian/HYDRA situation was more complicated than you're making it seem.
    And let's not forget that if you go by the last decade, either Jonathan Hickman's Secret Warriors or MCU's Captain America: The Winter Soldier, S.H.I.E.L.D. was covertly (infiltrated by) a branch of HYDRA since its very foundation, so that's extra rot. Having it openly subverted and controlled by HYDRA in Secret Empire was the last straw, so the U.S. government finally dissolved that organization. Likely for the best.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  12. #87
    Mighty Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichijinijisanji View Post
    Xavier's more responsible for his own demise, as callous as that sounds. He knew the risks and went in to fight cyclops, knowing he was unstable.
    He made a mistake and paid the price.

    Aren't we allowed to make mistakes? All the fault should be on us?

  13. #88
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    Considering what Xavier should already know about the Phoenix from previous encounters, his plan had the same sense as going to prick the Hulk in the eye to see if he would become Banner.

  14. #89
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    Considering what Xavier should already know about the Phoenix from previous encounters, his plan had the same sense as going to prick the Hulk in the eye to see if he would become Banner.
    He's only had 4 encounters with the Phoenix prior to that story,(Jean initially becoming Phoenix, battling Dark Phoenix, becoming Phoenix himself and Phoenix in New X-men) and all were favorable except for Dark Phoenix in which he did go face to face with her and it didnt end up badly for anyone. He fought her hard but she didnt kill him. He was able to win that battle enough to help restore Jean back to her normal self so I dont agree with your statement based on his own personal experience
    Last edited by Havok83; 06-02-2020 at 08:45 AM.

  15. #90
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    He's only had 4 encounters with the Phoenix prior to that story,(Jean initially becoming Phoenix, battling Dark Phoenix, becoming Phoenix himself and Phoenix in New X-men) and all were favorable except for Dark Phoenix in which he did go face to face with her and it didnt end up badly for anyone. He fought her hard but she didnt kill him. He was able to win that battle enough to help restore Jean back to her normal self so I dont agree with your statement based on his own personal experience
    Those experiences should have taught him that bringing an army of superheroes to beat Scott and Emma was all he could do to make them more and more unstable. Yelling at someone "CALM DOWN" while the Hulk and Thor are hitting him in the face is a lousy idea.

    Xavier also overestimated his emotional connection with Scott at the time. After everything that had happened (Deadly Genesis, Astonishing, Schism ...) he was not the right person for that situation. Scott held too much rancor towards him, which under the influence of the Phoenix was amplified.

    It was a terrible intervention and complete strategical failure, it only escalated the situation.

    Like cops right now, tbh.

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