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  1. #151
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Well, setting aside whether it made any lasting impact, I think it "worked" in the sense of saving people and preventing more harm then there would have been otherwise. I don't think the X-Men did anything wrong.

    But I guess there's only so much mileage you can get out of "moral victories."
    That's the thing, X-Men victories were based on the status quo not getting worse, not improving it. They weren't enough. They had the power to improve the world so they had a responsibility to do it.

    That should be the difference between Avengers and X-Men. The Avengers must want to save the world, the X-Men change it to something better. If not, they are redundant.

  2. #152
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    That's the thing, X-Men victories were based on the status quo not getting worse, not improving it. They weren't enough. They had the power to improve the world so they had a responsibility to do it.

    That should be the difference between Avengers and X-Men. The Avengers must want to save the world, the X-Men change it to something better. If not, they are redundant.
    I feel like there was an illustration Hickman had on his twitter of the main goals of the X-Men, FF, and Avengers that kind of depicted that...although I think there was the intention that the X-Men's victories were improving things to some extent, even if in the long-term the stories didn't depict that for one reason or another.

  3. #153
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    That's kind of the point of Krakoa in the first place. The X-Men being the "good mutants" who'd fight the "bad mutants" on behalf of protecting humanity didn't work, because humanity as a whole saw all mutants as bad and never meaningfully deviated from that position, lumping the X-Men in with the Brotherhood, the Acolytes, and the Mutant Liberation Front alike as rival mutant gangs fighting it out for dominance over the planet. Hell, what was the response once the X-Men were presumed dead and gone? Wholesale genocide, whether by pushing the vaccine to negate the X-gene before it ever manifested in children and young adolescents or just killing mutants in the streets, with nary a word of protest from the rest of the 'verse.
    Another interesting point, is that most of the characters in the Brotherhood, MLF and Acolytes have goals that are at least somewhat honorable. The MLF want to protect mutants. The Acolytes originally banded together to fight the tyranny of the Genoshan magistrates. the Brotherhood... their methods are questionable, but their actions are often to protect people.

    So it makes sense that the Xmen would be willing to try to talk to them. Heck several of the Acolytes had already joined the Xmen anyways.

  4. #154
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I feel like there was an illustration Hickman had on his twitter of the main goals of the X-Men, FF, and Avengers that kind of depicted that...although I think there was the intention that the X-Men's victories were improving things to some extent, even if in the long-term the stories didn't depict that for one reason or another.
    I don't know that illustration, I wish someone would find it. But for me the Avengers protect the world, the X-Men make the world better, and the 4F explore the world beyond.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Another interesting point, is that most of the characters in the Brotherhood, MLF and Acolytes have goals that are at least somewhat honorable. The MLF want to protect mutants. The Acolytes originally banded together to fight the tyranny of the Genoshan magistrates. the Brotherhood... their methods are questionable, but their actions are often to protect people.

    So it makes sense that the Xmen would be willing to try to talk to them. Heck several of the Acolytes had already joined the Xmen anyways.
    I felt the immediate pre-Hickman era was worst of the early 90s black and white storytelling nonsense. The X-Men were the forces of good and didn't have to rationalize or deal with the evil mutants and it was clear the writers wanted us to see it that way. It made sense for some X-Men to see it that way not all of them.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichijinijisanji View Post
    A world of telepaths can also create intent and obfuscate truth. There are some things hidden from even the best telepaths when it becomes a matter of how good and sophisticated their blocks are and how much damage you'd have to do to use telepathy to get to that truth.
    Just a general idea, not particularly related to sabretooth
    I was reminded in Schism when Quietin Quire use his telepathy to get all the world leaders in the UN to admit their crimes, and well that had consequences, like that world leaders based on the real life Iranian leader at the time admitting that he beat his children not out of discipline but because he takes pleasure in inflicting harm on them.
    Last edited by Rzerox21xx; 06-07-2020 at 10:37 AM.

  7. #157
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    I don't know that illustration, I wish someone would find it. But for me the Avengers protect the world, the X-Men make the world better, and the 4F explore the world beyond.
    I swear that was exactly what the illustration was depicting .

  8. #158
    Astonishing Member Ferro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmc247 View Post
    I felt the immediate pre-Hickman era was worst of the early 90s black and white storytelling nonsense. The X-Men were the forces of good and didn't have to rationalize or deal with the evil mutants and it was clear the writers wanted us to see it that way. It made sense for some X-Men to see it that way not all of them.
    especially when all it takes for even the brightest of x-men to be seen as an "evil mutant" is one human mistake.

  9. #159
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I swear that was exactly what the illustration was depicting .
    He is a man with a really good taste.

  10. #160
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    She said it best



  11. #161
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    She said it best


    Technically, that was Cassandra Nova doing a "deepfake" video of Jean. That said . . .
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  12. #162
    Fantastic Member mikelmcknight72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichijinijisanji View Post
    A world of telepaths can also create intent and obfuscate truth. There are some things hidden from even the best telepaths when it becomes a matter of how good and sophisticated their blocks are and how much damage you'd have to do to use telepathy to get to that truth.
    Just a general idea, not particularly related to sabretooth
    I'd like to see them adopt some of the inalienable rights from the US Constitution, especially the Bill of Rights. In this case, a version of the fifth amendment that prohibits telepathic coercion to self-incriminate. Freedoms of speech, religion, assembly, etc, should be ideas that would be valued by most mutants.

  13. #163
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmc247 View Post
    I felt the immediate pre-Hickman era was worst of the early 90s black and white storytelling nonsense. The X-Men were the forces of good and didn't have to rationalize or deal with the evil mutants and it was clear the writers wanted us to see it that way. It made sense for some X-Men to see it that way not all of them.
    Hehe, for me this scene perfectly encapsulates the MLF:
    x-men-vs-mutant-liberation-front-uncanny-x-men-vol-5-1-3-e1542349545786.jpg
    They have a goal that's good, but start fighting the xmen BEFORE explaining their goal.
    Quote Originally Posted by mikelmcknight72 View Post
    I'd like to see them adopt some of the inalienable rights from the US Constitution, especially the Bill of Rights. In this case, a version of the fifth amendment that prohibits telepathic coercion to self-incriminate. Freedoms of speech, religion, assembly, etc, should be ideas that would be valued by most mutants.
    This was one of the more interesting things in Babylon 5. There are so many telepaths that there is an official government agency to handle telepathic crimes. One of the kinds of telepathic crime was actually using telepathically implanted memories to make someone who's innocent think they committed a crime. Only the top-tier Psi agents(like Alfred Bester) had the telepathic ability and skill to discern this though.

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by coveredinbees View Post
    You know, I'd always thought of them as different from other heroes, but you may be right. They are like police. Moira permanently detained mutant prisoners on Muir Island without charging them. This is very similar to the fake trial of Sabertooth.

    Hopefully, they will become less villainous as Krakoa proceeds. How can the X-Men become less like police and more useful like activists?
    Hopefully they'll improve, but they have to hold some accountability for their own first or they'll just repeat their mistakes. What's really strange is that they're main mistakes they shouldn't be, like with Sabretooth. The X-men may not be perfect but they're not this stupid with their decisions in the past.
    The opportunity to be activists was before they got into nation building, when they were in the mansion they were primed for that. However, the reason the X-men focus more on being super-heroes over activists in the comics is because of the genre they're in. They've grown stronger with that, like with Bendis run, but overall its about sexy people in spandex punching each other. Hickman's changed this remarkably but he hasn't completely abandoned the X-men roots in that vein. Even the politics has the tone of sensationalism in it, that's why it's exciting.

    What do you think? Maybe now they can uplift mutantkind as a whole while rather than uplift just themselves at the cost of perceived ‘bad’ mutants.
    I'd love it if they could do that except first they have to do it rather than just talk about it. Otherwise they come as hypocrites who sold their ideals to their worst enemies for nothing. The status quo may have shifted from being hated and feared in a mansion to being hated and feared on an island but they're no longer the powerless minorities any longer, they're the establishment now. They're politicians, generals and soldiers. Uplifting mutant kind is a massive responsibility and they have the same mistakes humanity's made, they just have super powers and a magic island.

    Marhawkman:

    The goals isn't the problem for terrorist groups like that, it's their methods.

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