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  1. #1
    Mighty Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    Default Proposal: Marvel Returns (soft reboot/line-wide relaunch of Marvel Comics)

    In the event thread I made, I proposed a soft reboot and relaunch akin to DC Rebirth to revitalize the Marvel Comics brand in what is likely their last chance to stay alive. Well, I've put more thought into it, and here's what I propose for such a thing if it were to become real. I think DC Rebirth was their best move in the '10s, and it's a shame that they failed and ended up in a worse place than the New 52. But even still, Rebirth was great while it lasted, so let's capture that and hope to keep the magic.

    The proposal:

    Marvel Returns

    Marvel Returns is a line-wide relaunch and a soft reboot of the Marvel Comics brand. The goal is not to hard reset the continuity from zero, but to bring back everything that's loved about Marvel Comics. The basic premise is that some kind of time fluctuation (explored in a later story) altered recent history. The last eight real world years of Marvel Comics have been rewritten to be a continuation of what came before it, and the original 2012-2020 era is jettisoned off into an alternate timeline. This allows Marvel to pick what works, change what can improve, and scrap what needs to be scrapped. It's all connected to the pre-2012 continuity, still 616, but the effects and ramifications are explored in later comics and there's some meta commentary on the state of what Marvel Comics became (like Ms. Marvel Carol looking in disgust and sheer horror at the sight of Captain Marvel Carol).

    The name has a double meaning. The first is that it's based on the iconic storyline Heroes Return, which was about the undoing of Heroes Reborn, making it an apt comparison. It also means that Marvel, the real Marvel, is back with a vengeance and ready to right all the wrongs of the last eight years, and make the brand better than ever. No more fooling around.

    Like with DC Rebirth, there's a unifying Marvel Returns banner on the comics, from floppies to trades, to spread the message of what they're doing. Content is rolled out in Waves after certain periods of time, building off of past success.

    General Changes
    • Completely revamped creative talent. Many experienced creators from the past rejoin, and bring their skills to the task. Many promising newcomers are hired from sources that aren't Twitter fan art. The driving factor for hiring is not "woman writes woman", "black writes black", "gay writes gay" etc. but rather "how good they are as a creator", the way it should be.
    • Emphasis on on good, well-written, agenda-free stories with good art and a hard ban on any Tumblr-esque style. Politics should be handled like '80s Marvel, not like '10s, ie more nuance and mixed in with quality storytelling and other influences besides being disgruntled with the real world and projecting it on the reader.
    • Characters are restored to their classic characterizations and personalities. Examples below.
    • No events for at least a year, preferably at least 18 months and longer, so as to actually allow a status quo to be set.
    • Experiment with new characters, and by that I mean actually new characters, the kind you would see Marvel experiment in the '80s at their creative height, NOT lazy token diversity swaps. I had ideas for characters before, which I will share below to show you later, proving that you can come up with cool new heroes if you put your mind to it. Not even that hard, I've spent 20 minutes thinking of the ones below, and will spend maybe an hour or two typing it. It may sound like me flexing creative muscles, but there's a reason for it: Marvel is known as the House of Ideas. They need to rebuild that house by coming up with cool new ideas. I'll demonstrate how that can be done.
    • Related to the above, bring back the classic title Marvel Premiere, which is an anthology that's about telling 2-3 issue stories with these characters as an introduction. If received well enough, they get the greenlight for an ongoing, which further integrates them into the world by having them interact with established characters while taking part in different stories. Sounds reasonable to me, and would be a great way to engage with your customers while adding something new and exciting for a change.
    • Overall, it's darker and edgier. I don't mean that in the '90s "dark age" sense, but more like the '80s sort of way mixing idealism with cynicism in proper measure. No pulling punches, basically. Oh, speaking of which...
    • In general, the '80s is a big influence. That was the golden era of creativity and storytelling, and that's what should be looked at as a blueprint. A balance is struck between fun superheroes and mature writing, there's a very tight continuity maintained so that everything that happens has an effect and there's synergy across the titles (make sure you get good editors!), new heroes that people would likely want to read about are introduced, you have actual creative teams on a run, and not swapped-out artists, events are contained, more diverse and experimental genre content, actual story progression... you get the idea. Really, just go through this list and try to do as much of that as you can.


    Specific Changes
    • Carol Danvers is now Ms. Marvel again with the iconic sexy look, with her genuinely flawed but much more likable personality.
    • Same with Spider-Woman, She-Hulk, Psylocke and so on.
    • Falcon never becomes Cap, X-23 doesn't become Wolverine, Amadeus Cho remains a brainy nerd but doesn't become Hulk. Their characters instead develop naturally.
    • Miles Morales exists but has an all new identity and is written more like ITSV and PS4
    • Same with Kamala Khan who is also given more depth as a character and less emphasis on her religion/race.
    • Wolverine is now an R-rated action hero as a comic book character, like he should be.
    • Spider-Man is portrayed like his better stories and not like in Dan Slott's run.
    • Iceman is no longer forcibly made gay after decades of being straight.
    • The Fantastic Four are the greatest team of the setting and treated as such.
    • Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch are now mutants and Magneto's children again.
    • Jane Foster remains a civilian and never becomes Thor.
    • X-Men are now back in Westchester.
    • Other characters like Riri Williams, America Chavez, and a lot of the Champions are put on the backburner and HEAVILY reinvented if reintroduced. Characters like the New New Warriors and Children of the Atom no longer exist.


    Wave One

    Wave One features most of the flagship titles, with some lesser-known but well-liked additions.

    Spider-Man:
    1. The Amazing Spider-Man
    2. Marvel Team-Up
    3. Venom

    Fantastic Four:
    1. Main Title
    2. Marvel Two-in-One

    X-Men:
    1. Uncanny X-Men
    2. X-Force
    3. New Mutants
    4. Wolverine

    The Avengers:
    1. Main Title
    2. Iron Man
    3. Captain America
    4. The Mighty Thor
    5. Ms. Marvel (starring Carol Danvers)
    6. She-Hulk
    7. Hawkeye

    Teams:
    1. Guardians of the Galaxy
    2. Thunderbolts

    Solos:
    1. Daredevil
    2. Deadpool
    3. Doctor Strange
    4. The Incredible Hulk
    5. Marvel Premiere
    6. Nova (starring Richard Rider)
    7. The Punisher


    Wave Two

    A second wave of new content, a lot of the more more lesser-known properties with the idea of reintroducing them to new readers. Also, a subsection called "The New Heroes", which is six new ongoings about the heroes introduced in Marvel Premiere in Wave One.

    X-Men:
    1. Alpha Flight
    2. Cable
    3. Excalibur
    4. Shadowcat (Kitty Pryde's first ongoing)
    5. X-Factor

    The Avengers:
    1. Black Panther
    2. Black Widow
    3. Spider-Woman
    4. War Machine
    5. West Coast Avengers (an actual, proper relaunch of the classic this time)
    6. Young Avengers

    Teams:
    1. Defenders (a return to being Marvel's non-team)
    2. Invaders
    3. New Warriors (a PROPER version of this, as an edgy but fun series, taking after Fabian Nicieza's run!)
    4. Power Pack
    5. Runaways

    Solos:
    1. Alias: Jessica Jones
    2. Cloak & Dagger
    3. Moon Knight
    4. Power Man & Iron Fist

    The New Heroes:
    1. Action Five
    2. Gremlin
    3. The Pretender
    4. Quantum & Jynx
    5. Suppressor
    6. Warbird

    After thinking about this and typing it out, I realize it may not be perfect. A lot of people might be happy, but some will be mad and complain. You can't please everyone, but you can make the best decision for your business that pleases the most people. It's fine to like the new stuff Marvel was putting out, but it's also fact that many hated it, and this had caused sales to nosedive each year. There is simply no way you can argue that the new direction was good from a business standpoint, and all that reached a breaking point with New New Warriors right when COVID struck. That said, if you have any criticism, genuine criticism, please share. I'd love to discuss comics with other passionate minds who want to see Marvel recover.

    Thanks.

  2. #2
    VEGETATIVE INJUSTICE! Kurisu's Avatar
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    The only people this would please are the aging white men who refuse to let go of their twenties and Liefeld lithographs.

  3. #3
    Mighty Member your_name_here's Avatar
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    You say they need to become the house of ideas while reverting all characters to their roots.

    Why sideline America Chavez? She’s a new character.

    Comics are great because they are ever changing and evolving and full of new ideas. Some will stick the landing and some won’t. We don’t need to revert back to older ways at all. If anything, that would do nothing but damage the brand.

  4. #4
    Mighty Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurisu View Post
    The only people this would please are the aging white men who refuse to let go of their twenties and Liefeld lithographs.


    Yep. Seems like Marvel's new direction is paying off for them with universal acclaim...

    People who talk like that are exactly what's made comic books such a toxic medium. I mean, seriously, did you even read the OP or just assume the most negative stereotype rather than focusing on paying customers?

  5. #5
    Mighty Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by your_name_here View Post
    You say they need to become the house of ideas while reverting all characters to their roots.

    Why sideline America Chavez? She’s a new character.

    Comics are great because they are ever changing and evolving and full of new ideas. Some will stick the landing and some won’t. We don’t need to revert back to older ways at all. If anything, that would do nothing but damage the brand.
    How is reverting eight years of damage a bad thing? Hell, I actually said this much:

    This allows Marvel to pick what works, change what can improve, and scrap what needs to be scrapped.
    Yes, I agree that comics evolve. But they also don't stick to suicidal business methods. They listen to their fans, paying customers, and actually focus on making good stories. I also said not to scrap America Chavez, but to hold off as they rebuild the brand, and then they could potentially bring her back with greatly improved writing and direction.

  6. #6
    Uncanny Member XPac's Avatar
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    I'm personally not a fan of reboots.

    DC does them all the time, and it just makes continuity confusing. They layer reboots and retcons on top of reboots and retcons until the whole thing becomes one big mess.

    They can relaunch titles and try to return to whatever status quo they want but I don't think warping continuity is the way to do it. Just my opinon.

  7. #7
    Mighty Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I'm personally not a fan of reboots.

    DC does them all the time, and it just makes continuity confusing. They layer reboots and retcons on top of reboots and retcons until the whole thing becomes one big mess.

    They can relaunch titles and try to return to whatever status quo they want but I don't think warping continuity is the way to do it. Just my opinon.
    I didn't say reboot the whole continuity from zero, what I said was...

    The goal is not to hard reset the continuity from zero, but to bring back everything that's loved about Marvel Comics. The basic premise is that some kind of time fluctuation (explored in a later story) altered recent history. The last eight real world years of Marvel Comics have been rewritten to be a continuation of what came before it, and the original 2012-2020 era is jettisoned off into an alternate timeline. This allows Marvel to pick what works, change what can improve, and scrap what needs to be scrapped. It's all connected to the pre-2012 continuity, still 616,
    I do see what you're getting at though. Not long ago, I was in the same boat. But I can't look at the way things are now, with the way characters, stories, lore having been so thoroughly tarnished, where they thought that Twitter represented the society as a whole and gave us Safespace and Snowflake, and say "This can be fixed" without cleaning up a mess.

    But looking past the reboot part (remember, I did say it probably wasn't perfect and was hoping to discuss this meaningfully), what do you think of the other ideas? The general restoration of the status quo and how things are done. I'm interested in hearing your opinion

    I think DC Rebirth was really good after New 52. They just fell in a worse place afterwards, no denying that, but the era of DC Rebirth was great in and of itself. That's why I was inspired by it.

  8. #8
    Astonishing Member Drops Of Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post


    Yep. Seems like Marvel's new direction is paying off for them with universal acclaim...

    People who talk like that are exactly what's made comic books such a toxic medium. I mean, seriously, did you even read the OP or just assume the most negative stereotype rather than focusing on paying customers?
    Paying customers my ass. Everyone knows the New Warriors thing was something that went viral and started to be disliked by people who don't even read comics, much less pay for them. Most videos the Marvel channel posts about comic books don't even get half of the views this one did. New Warriors was obviously an exceptional case. I can guarantee you those 236k dislikes would NEVER translate into sales if Marvel ever decided to publish a ''proper'' version of the team. It would probably last from 6 to 12 issues and then get cancelled, much like their latest series (which was written by beloved and acclaimed writer Christopher Yost). So let's cut the bullshit and stop acting like trolls on the internet are proof of anything. It's specially lame to see people using this as an argument, when it's a book that's literally not even published. It's all fake outrage over how something looks, and not even the actual material.

    And I'm sorry, but half of your suggestions are precisely based on some of the most negative stereotypes of comic book fans. You specifically targeted every single thing Marvel has made in the last few years that was deemed too ''SJW'' by a specific group of readers and decided to erase it, diminish it or retcon it. It's basically Comicsgate fan-fiction. Don't act so surprised if people are gonna call you out on your bias, because it's very transparent. It's disingenuous to treat this like ''the best decision for the company'', because that's not what it is. It's a VERY subjective look at the company from a very specific fan point of view. The best decision for the company won't consider just what one group of people think, but what they can do as a whole to please as many fans as possible. Erasing everything you did to reach a new audience is not the way to do that. Also, some of your suggestions are not even commercially viable. Why on Earth would they promote Carol Danvers as Ms. Marvel when she has a billion-dollar movie franchise as Captain Marvel and is objectively more known like that right now, on top of Kamala Khan having solidified herself as Ms. Marvel on every possible Marvel media these days? Let's not act like you're suggesting this because it's what makes the most sense for the company. You just want to make a statement.

    There's no point in arguing too much about it, because this is never gonna happen anyway. Not only because Marvel won't ever acknowledge some of the things they did as a ''mistake'' (and good for them for not caving in to some fans), but also because they just don't like the idea of reboots anyway. If not even Secret Wars was enough to cause too many changes, nothing else will. I'm sure they will do things to pander to the old guard every now and then, but they're not gonna do that by erasing everything that's new and different. They will probably find a way to make both co-exist, which is the most reasonable option.
    Last edited by Drops Of Venus; 05-31-2020 at 06:03 PM.

  9. #9
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Carol starred in a movie as Captain Marvel and Kamala's getting a TV show as Ms. Marvel. Reverting Carol to Ms. Marvel and giving Kamala a new codename isn't going to work.

    Any rollback should only go as far as War of the Realms. The stuff set up in Incoming! has been badly disrupted, and some of it possibly cancelled (Outlawed is definitely a write-off that needs a fast wrap-up, Empyre's lost some tie-ins, and I can see the Masked Raider stuff not happening now).
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  10. #10
    Mighty Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drops Of Venus View Post
    Paying customers my ass. Everyone knows the New Warriors thing was something that went viral and started to be disliked by people who don't even read comics, much less pay for them. Most videos Marvel post about comic books don't even get half of the views this one did. New Warriors was obviously an exceptional case. I can guarantee you those 236k dislikes would NEVER translate into sales if Marvel ever decided to publish a ''proper'' version of the team. It would probably last from 6 to 12 issues and then get cancelled, much like their latest series (which was written by beloved and acclaimed writer Christopher Yost). So let's cut the bullshit and stop acting like trolls on the internet are proof of anything. It's specially lame to see people using this as an argument, when it's a book that literally not even published. It's all fake outrage over how something looks, and not even the actual material.

    And I'm sorry, but half of your suggestions are precisely based on some of the most negative stereotypes of comic book fans. You specifically targeted every single thing Marvel has made in the last few years that was deemed too ''SJW'' by a specific group of readers and decided to erase it, diminish it or retcon it. It's basically Comicsgate fan-fiction. Don't act so surprised if people are gonna call you out on your bias, because it's very transparent. It's disingenuous to treat this like ''the best decision for the company'', because that's not what it is. It's a VERY subjective look at the company from a very specific fan point of view. The best decision for the company won't consider just what one group of people think, but what they can do as a whole to please as many fans as possible. Erasing everything you did to reach a new audience is not the way to do that. Also, some of your suggestions are not even commercially viable. Why on Earth would they promote Carol Danvers as Ms. Marvel when she has a billion-dollar movie franchise as Captain Marvel and is objectively more known like that right now, on top of Kamala Khan having solidified herself as Ms. Marvel on every possible Marvel media these days? Let's not act like you're suggesting this because it's what makes the most sense for the company. You just want to make a political statement.

    Anyway, this is never gonna happen anyway, because Marvel won't ever acknowledge some of the things they did as a ''mistake'', and also because they just don't like the idea of reboots anyway. If not even Secret Wars was enough to cause too many changes, nothing else will. I'm sure they will do things to pander to the old guard every now and then, but they're not gonna do that by erasing everything that's new and different. They will probably find a way to make both co-exist, which is the most reasonable option.
    Wow. Just.... Wow. You're defending Marvel's worst decision ever. I didn't think I'd see that.

    Well, I can't argue with that. Everything I suggested in the OP, from the titles, to the way stories are told, was based solely on race and politics. All I want are straight white men...

    Except I suggested multiple black protagonist comics, multiple female-led comics, multiple comics with diverse teams, multiple comics with LGBT representation, and multiple comics that aren't about straight white men. Such as: Black Panther, War Machine, Black Widow, Ms. Marvel, New Mutants, Young Avengers, Runaways, New Warriors, Alpha Flight, Shadowcat (which would be her first ongoing!), X-Factor, Power Pack, Cloak & Dagger, She-Hulk, Spider-Woman, Power Man & Iron Fist, and Jessica Jones. All ongoings.

    Also, the new ideas I had for cool new stuff they could do? Spoiler alert:

    Action Five -- Japan-based team, all Japanese people.
    Gremlin -- Female lead.
    The Pretender -- The only straight white male led new idea.
    Quantum & Jynx -- Female co-star.
    Suppressor -- Black lead.
    Warbird -- Female lead.

    I didn't emphasize traits, but stories. That's how I operate, and ended up with that.

    But other than all of that, nothing. All I want are straight white men to do everything.

    I wonder if you're able to see past things like skin color, sex, identity and personal politics because I barely touched on any of that and focused on quality in general.

    Also, the MCU has jack diddly shit to do with the comics. The comics are dying because of their stupid decisions. Outside media doesn't matter when they're turning away customers. What's next, are you gonna say "toxic fandom"?
    Last edited by Hybrid; 05-31-2020 at 06:05 PM.

  11. #11
    Mighty Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Carol starred in a movie as Captain Marvel and Kamala's getting a TV show as Ms. Marvel. Reverting Carol to Ms. Marvel and giving Kamala a new codename isn't going to work.

    Any rollback should only go as far as War of the Realms. The stuff set up in Incoming! has been badly disrupted, and some of it possibly cancelled (Outlawed is definitely a write-off that needs a fast wrap-up, Empyre's lost some tie-ins, and I can see the Masked Raider stuff not happening now).
    Comics and outside media don't need to be in perfect sync, dude. Even the MCU knew that.

  12. #12
    Mighty Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    Look, I'm not against criticism, but I was hoping for thoughtful criticism. People being mature and discussing things as adult wanting to save something we love. CBR is normally a good community, and I'm disappointed with what I'm seeing.

    Forget the reboot, it was just an idea. What if we did everything else. What do you think then?

  13. #13
    Mighty Member babyblob's Avatar
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    To go with the Op idea of a soft Reboot. I would use Doctor Doom when have him gain reality warping powers like he has done before or maybe some one with the Infinity Gauntlet. Have them reset the universe from a certin point or even creat a pocket universe kind of like the Ultimate line. I will give this more thought.

    As much as I bitch about DC doing bad reboots I would like to see what I can come up with to see if I can do better.
    Favorite teams. Alpha Flight, Avengers, Fantastic Four, West Coast Avengers, Justice Society of America, Legion of Superheroes.

  14. #14
    Mighty Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babyblob View Post
    To go with the Op idea of a soft Reboot. I would use Doctor Doom when have him gain reality warping powers like he has done before or maybe some one with the Infinity Gauntlet. Have them reset the universe from a certin point or even creat a pocket universe kind of like the Ultimate line. I will give this more thought.

    As much as I bitch about DC doing bad reboots I would like to see what I can come up with to see if I can do better.
    Thanks man.

    I had a feeling I'd get backdraft from...certain people, but I'm NOT motivated by politics and social issues, I'm motivated to get good stories made again. I'm not political, I didn't even vote in 2016 because I didn't feel comfortable with either candidate. I'm just a guy who wants good stuff to read!

    Anyways, yes, DC's reboot problem is bad, which is why what I suggest should (hopefully) only be used once. In fact, label that the nuclear option, the last resort or whatever. I think we're at that stage is what I mean.

  15. #15
    Extraordinary Member Crimz's Avatar
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    Not into it. Feels like another nostalgia-heavy thing which is too overdone.

    Like there is no need for Captain Marvel to regress back to Ms Marvel. She is selling better than ever and had a billion dollar film. Why erase all that progress with the character for the sake of nostalgia?
    Get the INVISIBLE WOMAN mini OUT NOW!


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