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  1. #46
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    Can't believe someone typed Hawkeye and She-Hulk don't sell and hit "post quick reply".

    Also there's no point in reverting Carol to Ms. Marvel. Mar-Vell's dead and Carol was his first second (lol) unless you're planning to make Rick Jones a new Captain Marvel.
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  2. #47
    Mighty Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    We better hope the superhero movie craze keeps going strong because if it doesn't Disney is going to roll up Marvel Comics like an old throw rug. The name will still be around, but Marvel as we know it will be gone. I'm sure that a story on CBR(which has probably suffered the fate of Newsarama and become a tab on a videogame website) will tell us that this is for the best and Marvel is stronger than ever.

    Of course being around when Marvel comics comes to an end could have its upsides. Maybe Ken Burns will do a documentary LOL. You know that bit that Ken Burns does when he has voice actors who read actual letters from the time period in an old timey voice? Maybe he will do that with our defunct messageboard LOL.
    Last edited by Anthony W; 06-01-2020 at 11:39 AM. Reason: Autocorrect out of control
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    We better hope the superhero movie craze keeps going strong because if it doesn't Disney is going to roll up Marvel Comics like an old throw rug. The name will still be around, but Marvel as we know it will be gone. I'm sure that a story on CBR(which has probably suffered the fate of Newsarama and become a tab on a videogame website) will tell us that this is for the best and Marvel is stronger than ever.

    Of course being around when Marvel comics comes to an end could have its upsides. Maybe Ken Burns will do a documentary LOL. You know that bit that Ken Burns does when he has voice actors who read actual letters from the time period in an old timey voice? Maybe he will do that with our defunct messageboard LOL.
    What Marvel Comics cost Disney to run is a small drop in the bucket compared to what marvel Comics as WHILE brings back in profit.

    Marvel Comics is not just those comics books. It's all merchandise, tv shows and movies.

    Folks letting their hatred of certain characters shadow their logic.

    Hawkeye don't sell. 23 trades.

    She Hulk doesn't sell. 28 trades.

    Carol Danvers 37 trades. The majority before her movie.

    Black Panther 50 trades (43 BEFORE that movie).

    Luke Cage 21 (maybe 23) trades.

    Miles Morales 22 trades.

    Kamala Khan 18 trades

    Squirrel Girl 18 trades

    Moon Knight 23 trades

    You don't get this if you can't sell? Right Cyclops? All X-Men not named Logan or X-23?

    But these are the guys and gal that need to take back seats. Because of youtubers and gators.

  4. #49
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    Carol Danvers current run is probably its best selling in long, long time.

    Marvel isn’t going to tamper with what’s generating them money both in print and in cinema.

    Besides, a lot of the OPs complaints are years too late. A lot of what he/she is referring to isn’t applicable now.

    And Marvel’s current writing staff is pretty brilliant. I’d much rather have the universe guided by the likes of Spencer, Ewing and Cates than older writers that in many cases are past their prime.
    Last edited by Username taken; 06-01-2020 at 01:33 PM.
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  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
    In the event thread I made, I proposed a soft reboot and relaunch akin to DC Rebirth to revitalize the Marvel Comics brand in what is likely their last chance to stay alive. Well, I've put more thought into it, and here's what I propose for such a thing if it were to become real. I think DC Rebirth was their best move in the '10s, and it's a shame that they failed and ended up in a worse place than the New 52. But even still, Rebirth was great while it lasted, so let's capture that and hope to keep the magic.

    The proposal:

    Marvel Returns

    Marvel Returns is a line-wide relaunch and a soft reboot of the Marvel Comics brand. The goal is not to hard reset the continuity from zero, but to bring back everything that's loved about Marvel Comics. The basic premise is that some kind of time fluctuation (explored in a later story) altered recent history. The last eight real world years of Marvel Comics have been rewritten to be a continuation of what came before it, and the original 2012-2020 era is jettisoned off into an alternate timeline. This allows Marvel to pick what works, change what can improve, and scrap what needs to be scrapped. It's all connected to the pre-2012 continuity, still 616, but the effects and ramifications are explored in later comics and there's some meta commentary on the state of what Marvel Comics became (like Ms. Marvel Carol looking in disgust and sheer horror at the sight of Captain Marvel Carol).

    The name has a double meaning. The first is that it's based on the iconic storyline Heroes Return, which was about the undoing of Heroes Reborn, making it an apt comparison. It also means that Marvel, the real Marvel, is back with a vengeance and ready to right all the wrongs of the last eight years, and make the brand better than ever. No more fooling around.

    Like with DC Rebirth, there's a unifying Marvel Returns banner on the comics, from floppies to trades, to spread the message of what they're doing. Content is rolled out in Waves after certain periods of time, building off of past success.

    General Changes
    • Completely revamped creative talent. Many experienced creators from the past rejoin, and bring their skills to the task. Many promising newcomers are hired from sources that aren't Twitter fan art. The driving factor for hiring is not "woman writes woman", "black writes black", "gay writes gay" etc. but rather "how good they are as a creator", the way it should be.
    • Emphasis on on good, well-written, agenda-free stories with good art and a hard ban on any Tumblr-esque style. Politics should be handled like '80s Marvel, not like '10s, ie more nuance and mixed in with quality storytelling and other influences besides being disgruntled with the real world and projecting it on the reader.
    • Characters are restored to their classic characterizations and personalities. Examples below.
    • No events for at least a year, preferably at least 18 months and longer, so as to actually allow a status quo to be set.
    • Experiment with new characters, and by that I mean actually new characters, the kind you would see Marvel experiment in the '80s at their creative height, NOT lazy token diversity swaps. I had ideas for characters before, which I will share below to show you later, proving that you can come up with cool new heroes if you put your mind to it. Not even that hard, I've spent 20 minutes thinking of the ones below, and will spend maybe an hour or two typing it. It may sound like me flexing creative muscles, but there's a reason for it: Marvel is known as the House of Ideas. They need to rebuild that house by coming up with cool new ideas. I'll demonstrate how that can be done.
    • Related to the above, bring back the classic title Marvel Premiere, which is an anthology that's about telling 2-3 issue stories with these characters as an introduction. If received well enough, they get the greenlight for an ongoing, which further integrates them into the world by having them interact with established characters while taking part in different stories. Sounds reasonable to me, and would be a great way to engage with your customers while adding something new and exciting for a change.
    • Overall, it's darker and edgier. I don't mean that in the '90s "dark age" sense, but more like the '80s sort of way mixing idealism with cynicism in proper measure. No pulling punches, basically. Oh, speaking of which...
    • In general, the '80s is a big influence. That was the golden era of creativity and storytelling, and that's what should be looked at as a blueprint. A balance is struck between fun superheroes and mature writing, there's a very tight continuity maintained so that everything that happens has an effect and there's synergy across the titles (make sure you get good editors!), new heroes that people would likely want to read about are introduced, you have actual creative teams on a run, and not swapped-out artists, events are contained, more diverse and experimental genre content, actual story progression... you get the idea. Really, just go through this list and try to do as much of that as you can.


    Specific Changes
    • Carol Danvers is now Ms. Marvel again with the iconic sexy look, with her genuinely flawed but much more likable personality.
    • Same with Spider-Woman, She-Hulk, Psylocke and so on.
    • Falcon never becomes Cap, X-23 doesn't become Wolverine, Amadeus Cho remains a brainy nerd but doesn't become Hulk. Their characters instead develop naturally.
    • Miles Morales exists but has an all new identity and is written more like ITSV and PS4
    • Same with Kamala Khan who is also given more depth as a character and less emphasis on her religion/race.
    • Wolverine is now an R-rated action hero as a comic book character, like he should be.
    • Spider-Man is portrayed like his better stories and not like in Dan Slott's run.
    • Iceman is no longer forcibly made gay after decades of being straight.
    • The Fantastic Four are the greatest team of the setting and treated as such.
    • Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch are now mutants and Magneto's children again.
    • Jane Foster remains a civilian and never becomes Thor.
    • X-Men are now back in Westchester.
    • Other characters like Riri Williams, America Chavez, and a lot of the Champions are put on the backburner and HEAVILY reinvented if reintroduced. Characters like the New New Warriors and Children of the Atom no longer exist.


    Wave One

    Wave One features most of the flagship titles, with some lesser-known but well-liked additions.

    Spider-Man:
    1. The Amazing Spider-Man
    2. Marvel Team-Up
    3. Venom

    Fantastic Four:
    1. Main Title
    2. Marvel Two-in-One

    X-Men:
    1. Uncanny X-Men
    2. X-Force
    3. New Mutants
    4. Wolverine

    The Avengers:
    1. Main Title
    2. Iron Man
    3. Captain America
    4. The Mighty Thor
    5. Ms. Marvel (starring Carol Danvers)
    6. She-Hulk
    7. Hawkeye

    Teams:
    1. Guardians of the Galaxy
    2. Thunderbolts

    Solos:
    1. Daredevil
    2. Deadpool
    3. Doctor Strange
    4. The Incredible Hulk
    5. Marvel Premiere
    6. Nova (starring Richard Rider)
    7. The Punisher


    Wave Two

    A second wave of new content, a lot of the more more lesser-known properties with the idea of reintroducing them to new readers. Also, a subsection called "The New Heroes", which is six new ongoings about the heroes introduced in Marvel Premiere in Wave One.

    X-Men:
    1. Alpha Flight
    2. Cable
    3. Excalibur
    4. Shadowcat (Kitty Pryde's first ongoing)
    5. X-Factor

    The Avengers:
    1. Black Panther
    2. Black Widow
    3. Spider-Woman
    4. War Machine
    5. West Coast Avengers (an actual, proper relaunch of the classic this time)
    6. Young Avengers

    Teams:
    1. Defenders (a return to being Marvel's non-team)
    2. Invaders
    3. New Warriors (a PROPER version of this, as an edgy but fun series, taking after Fabian Nicieza's run!)
    4. Power Pack
    5. Runaways

    Solos:
    1. Alias: Jessica Jones
    2. Cloak & Dagger
    3. Moon Knight
    4. Power Man & Iron Fist

    The New Heroes:
    1. Action Five
    2. Gremlin
    3. The Pretender
    4. Quantum & Jynx
    5. Suppressor
    6. Warbird

    After thinking about this and typing it out, I realize it may not be perfect. A lot of people might be happy, but some will be mad and complain. You can't please everyone, but you can make the best decision for your business that pleases the most people. It's fine to like the new stuff Marvel was putting out, but it's also fact that many hated it, and this had caused sales to nosedive each year. There is simply no way you can argue that the new direction was good from a business standpoint, and all that reached a breaking point with New New Warriors right when COVID struck. That said, if you have any criticism, genuine criticism, please share. I'd love to discuss comics with other passionate minds who want to see Marvel recover.

    Thanks.
    Haven't a third if not half these changes already happened?

  6. #51
    Mighty Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    What Marvel Comics cost Disney to run is a small drop in the bucket compared to what marvel Comics as WHILE brings back in profit.

    Marvel Comics is not just those comics books. It's all merchandise, tv shows and movies.
    All of which can continue on without the comics without missing a beat. What else ya' got?

    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Folks letting their hatred of certain characters shadow their logic.
    You're in denial

    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Hawkeye don't sell. 23 trades.

    She Hulk doesn't sell. 28 trades.

    Carol Danvers 37 trades. The majority before her movie.

    Black Panther 50 trades (43 BEFORE that movie).

    Luke Cage 21 (maybe 23) trades.

    Miles Morales 22 trades.

    Kamala Khan 18 trades

    Squirrel Girl 18 trades

    Moon Knight 23 trades

    You don't get this if you can't sell? Right Cyclops? All X-Men not named Logan or X-23?

    But these are the guys and gal that need to take back seats. Because of youtubers and gators.
    And yet Marvel STILL MAKES MORE MONEY SLAPPING LOGOS ON T-SHIRTS. You can stop hiding now, I assure you the youtubers and gators have all left for the Promised Land of Indiegogo. And the other more diverse audience you're after all prefer to read manga which is way less diverse and even more misogynistic and male gazey.

    Go figure :/
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
    I consider it a nuclear option, only used once and hopefully never again. I was just looking for an easy way to get Marvel Comics back on the right track after the years of plummeting sales, fan backlash, direct market collapse, and Snowflake and Safespace. But looking past that, I was more interested in discussing what I proposed in general. I regret saying reboot because that gets too much attention, to be honest.
    The problem with that is, once you open pandora's box, you can't close it again. As a result, you end up with a butterfly effect where one small change causes ripples elsewhere. No matter how small it is. It is why each attempt by DC has caused continuity issues to the point they have trapped themselves in a never-ending cycle of constantly rejigging those changes. You toss out one thing, but then a writer comes along you may have liked that bit of history/story detail, they then proceed to restore it. Later on a writer comes who may have liked that detail never existing and tosses it out again. It becomes more of a problem if it is something that can't be rectified with a minor fix and needs a major storyline/event dedicated to implementing those changes.

    In saying that, I do agree with a majority of your points. Most just need minor cosmetic changes (new costume, new location etc). As for how a restore a previous character's personality? Well, such change can be achieved with character growth or come as a response to life altering events. Let's just say something happens in my life where I become hard and more abrasive to others. I may not notice it, but I am. A friend may point this out and suddenly I look at myself and realize it too. So I proceed to change and etch closer to how I was. Simple.

    Some changes can't be reversed at this point.
    - Carol has outgrown Ms Marvel and rolling it back can't be achieved now anyway. Not with the movie/MCU and with Kamala having solidified herself with the name.
    - Iceman suddenly being made straight again would be a PR disaster for Marvel. The best course at this stage would be to make him bisexual.

  8. #53
    Astonishing Member 9th.'s Avatar
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    Yeah no thank you, this seems completely unnecessary.
    Reading list: Far Sector (DC), Marauders (Marvel), X-Force (Marvel), X-Men (Marvel), Miles Morales: Spider-Man (Marvel), Venom (Marvel), My Hero Academia (VIZ), Killadelphia (Image), Bitter Root (Image), Black Hammer: Age of Doom (Darkhorse)

  9. #54
    Extraordinary Member jackolover's Avatar
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    The OP suggestion of starting the MU at the Heroic Age is an interesting point to start, because it just comes off the whole CW and Dark Reign fallout where heroes were ostracisized for a good 6 years.

    The problem is, you would have to reconcile where the new Diversified characters came from without their accompanied origins. As unpopularity the diversified characters may seem, they have a following now that fits with Marvels drive to the future of characters.

    If you were going to say restart the Heroic Age with some Time Slip to just before 2012, there would have to be an explanation that this is a synthetic restart, similar to ANAD, where you just transported characters from the future into the 2012 now.

    I am intrigued by the placing of Captain America back into a place of significance without the weight of the Secret Empire hanging over his shoulder. That may upset some sections of the community, like the diversified, or some creators who want Cap in that condition. But I would agree with Cap joining at the point just after Reborn. Tony Stark would not be drunk again or inverted. The Bendis Avengers will have been swept aside and someone else would come in and do something there.

    It just needs an issue where the diversified characters of ANAD had a mission? Do they show that the Avengers are passe’? Do diversified just come on the scene ignoring the Avengers and look at the world as it is in 2020?

    My issue is more to do with how Covid-19 gets handled. You could just run it in the background, like social distancing jokes during fights, or meetings runs with masks on, and some sick superheroes?

    The Heroic Age was this wonderful starting point in Marvel history that didn’t take advantage of giving superheroes this Fresh Start. The OP idea may give Marvel a Fresh Start as this recent idea of 2012. Marvel does seem to have looked at resetting, unconsciously, in the 1990’s, and in some instances in the 1970’s recently, so the idea of 2012 is not that unusual.
    Last edited by jackolover; 06-02-2020 at 08:47 PM.

  10. #55
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    The OP doesn't even try to hide its blatant sexism and racism. And lol at the idea that Carol will ever regress to Ms. Marvel.

  11. #56
    Extraordinary Member Holt's Avatar
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    This is like the second or third proposed "reboot" I've seen in the last few months where one of the first and key points was "Carol Danvers needs to be Ms. Marvel again." Y'all need to let go of that dream because it's not gonna happen. Even ignoring the synergistic aspect I'm sure has already been brought up, you can't even justify it by saying that Mar-Vell needs to return because he's effectively been a non-entity since the 70s. The entire reason The Death of Captain Marvel was allowed to happen in the first place was because Mar-Vell's book had been cancelled and nobody was doing anything with the character.
    Last edited by Holt; 06-02-2020 at 10:41 PM.

  12. #57
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    My issue is more to do with how Covid-19 gets handled. You could just run it in the background, like social distancing jokes during fights, or meetings runs with masks on, and some sick superheroes?
    Coronavirus will only come up in a historical context. The sliding timescale means having characters suffer from it would date the stories.
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  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holt View Post
    This is like the second or third proposed "reboot" I've seen in the last few months where one of the first and key points was "Carol Danvers needs to be Ms. Marvel again." Y'all need to let go of that dream because it's not gonna happen. Even ignoring the synergistic aspect I'm sure has already been brought up, you can't even justify it by saying that Mar-Vell needs to return because he's effectively been a non-entity since the 70s. The entire reason The Death of Captain Marvel was allowed to happen in the first place was because Mar-Vell's book had been cancelled and nobody was doing anything with the character.
    The exactly.

    Carol Danvers as Captain Marvel is for all intents and purposes is the most popular and successful bearer of the name. Bringing back Mar-vell after what...40 years or something isn’t really practical. I don’t know why grown men on YouTube have transferred their misplaced aggression at Brie Larson to the Captain Marvel character but it all seems to be helping because the movie was a mega hit and the title has hit its stride in sales.

    And as harsh is this might sound, Mar-vell’s major contribution to Marvel as a whole was his death and it’s apparent permanence.
    Last edited by Username taken; 06-03-2020 at 06:03 AM.
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  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    My issue is more to do with how Covid-19 gets handled. You could just run it in the background, like social distancing jokes during fights, or meetings runs with masks on, and some sick superheroes?

    Since we are dealing with comics-I would bypass that issue for the time being.

    It's not required that it has to be covered.

    Because if you cover that-folks are going to want George Floyd covered.

    And we already know what faction is going to throw a fit about if Marvel does.


    To brutally HONEST-I don't TRUST Marvel editorial staff to handle it properly-either case.

    I don't want to hear white heroes preach.

    I don't want to see Wakandans dying in droves just to appease the Unfans.

    I don't want covid-19 to be used like Heroes in Crisis was-get rid of who you don't care for.

    I don't want to see POC or LGBTQ sit in the background. A LOT of them need to go off. From Asian flu to praising cops killing black folks-it's past time for many of them to go off.

    But we know Marvel won't do that. You know give folks a REAL reason to be mad.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    The exactly.

    Carol Danvers as Captain Marvel is for all intents and purposes is the most popular and successful bearer of the name. Bringing back Mar-vell after what...40 years or something isn’t really practical. I don’t know why grown men on YouTube have transferred their misplaced aggression at Brie Larson to the Captain Marvel character but it all seems to be helping because the movie was a mega hit and the title has hit its stride in sales.

    And as harsh is this might sound, Mar-vell’s major contribution to Marvel as a whole was his death and it’s apparent permanence.
    Because they saw it done with Barry Allen (albeit 23 years later).
    They saw it done with Hal Jordan.
    Even to a lesser point done with Barbara Gordon.

    So why not here? If you don't count Ben Riley.

    The issue with that is who suffered from those returns?

    Wally West fans
    Stephanie Brown fans
    Cassandra Cain fans
    John Stewart fans
    Say HI.

    DC was more than willing to alienate those fanbases for those 3.

    I think folks want that done here. Mainly get rid of Kamala, Riri, Moon Girl, Sam & Miles.

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