Why has DC turned Shazam into the world's mightiest wimp?

[The True Detective]

If you had paid attention Marvelman clearly stated that the "he needs a supply of oxygen" bit only applies to the cartoon series. Specifically JLU and Young Justice.

In the comics Superman does not require an atmosphere and can indeed survive in outer space. This is because Mongul Jr. helped him overcome the psychological barriers that convinced him he needed food and oxygen. Now that he has overcome them he needs only sunlight to survive.




Sadly this is yet another example of DC rubbishing other characters to hype up "Bat-God," this time indirectly by hyping up his villains.

The irony is your favorite, Harley massively benefits from being a "Bat-God" character and is hyped up above others all the time. Why is that ok in your opinion?

[manwhohaseverything]

Shazam will never be really shown to his full potential in a world he exists in with Superman, because Superman will always be better than him.. They'll always favor the homegrown character over the analogue they bought from another publisher. The solution is that Superman and Shazam should not be on the same world. But good luck getting DC to stop favoring ClutterEarth set ups.

Superman is the analog. He copied and became the sun god seen today. Its disingenuous to call captain marvel The analog.As for op, i would much love for captain marvel to be the flying god/savior of dc and Clark to be just a strongman from space fighting a never ending battle for truth and justice. The whole brand superman thing is overrated.

[dswynne]

Back in the day, Captain Marvel could go toe to toe with Superman. The only two heroes who had a chance of taking him on were Superman and maybe Wonder Woman. (Remember the War of the Gods?) Now, Geoff Johns and DC have turned him into a fourth-rate Superman! He used to able to crack a planet in two. He used to be able to survive underwater and in space! But, over the years, DC has turned the original Captain Marvel into somebody Robin could beat up! This has been bugging me for a loooooong time, but today's Shazam! was the final straw! The story itself is not a bad story, but it is built on what is from my perspective a faulty premise. Captain Marvel/Shazam ought to be above a villain like the Scarecrow - a guy without powers! How is it that the Scarecrow's fear-gas even effects Shazam? He's supposed to be invulnerable! Not only that, he has the courage of Achilles! That should count for something! It doesn't help that Billy acts like a tool most of the time. Yeah, he's a teenager, but he's not retarded! There are some things that DC and Geoff Johns have done with the character that I like, but the wimpification of the world's mightiest mortal is not one of them! When is the original Captain Marvel going to get some respect?

One, "Captain Marvel" doesn't exist anymore. Well, he exists on "Earth-5/S", but not on the main Earth, so there will be differences between the way "Shazam!" and the classic "Captain Marvel" character are portrayed.

Two, Shazam, as Billy's superhero persona is now called, is Billy in control, not the superhero persona. So, basically, we're dealing with a mixture of Tom Hank's "BIG" mixed with Superman.

Three, I read the issue, and I saw it as Billy being arrogant enough to assume that Scarecrow wasn't a threat, and that the villain was just some ordinary costumed clown. Not so. Scarecrow is a MASTER chemist, and has created a variety of toxins that could even affect Superman. So Billy didn't even use the Wisdom of Solomon or the Courage of Achilles until after he focused on the threat.

Four, "invulnerability" means Shazam can be physically harmed by ordinary means, such as bullets. Had Billy used his powers effectively, his "Wisdom of Solomon" could have told him that he shouldn't breathe the air around him. Billy would have then switched to using the Stamina of Atlas to hold his breath indefinitely. That would have been the right thing to do.

And, finally, the whole point of the story is that Billy thinks that he is not being effective as a superhero, especially since he has such great powers. However, the incident involving Scarecrow means that he still needs to earn more experience, and that his rogue's gallery could help him in that effort.

I actually liked this issue, where there is a bit of introspection at work. Peace.

[hareluyafan1]

The irony is your favorite, Harley massively benefits from being a "Bat-God" character and is hyped up above others all the time. Why is that ok in your opinion?

LOL! Where did you get that idea from? I despise Harley the same way I despise all the "Bat-God" characters.

[Trevorsr66]

Shazam has the courage of Achilles and should not be affected by any manmade fear toxin
He does not have to breathe just like the most recent incarnation of Superman they do not have to breathe.Nuff Said

[Username taken]

Shazam has the courage of Achilles and should not be affected by any manmade fear toxin
He does not have to breathe just like the most recent incarnation of Superman they do not have to breathe.Nuff Said

Isn’t that the invulnerability of Achilles?

Or has it been changed?

EDIT: never mind you’re correct.

[dswynne]

Shazam has the courage of Achilles and should not be affected by any manmade fear toxin
He does not have to breathe just like the most recent incarnation of Superman they do not have to breathe.Nuff Said

I have a baseball bat. I haven't used it years.

In other words, just because Shazam has "The Courage of Achilles", that doesn't mean he uses it. 'Nuff said.

[Toreador]

Don't know about post new 52 but pre new 52 superman could breath in space and water just fine. He would even head to space for fun. Death battles superman vs goku 2 even showed a full scene in the comics where superman is in space with no space suit and makes a point that superman can breath in space.

Byrne era Superman needed to to have an oxygen belt when going into space. A breath could last him several hours but he still needed air to breathe.

[phantom1592]

I have a baseball bat. I haven't used it years.

In other words, just because Shazam has "The Courage of Achilles", that doesn't mean he uses it. 'Nuff said.

That shouldn't be the kind of thing he has to turn on or turn off.

Isn’t that the invulnerability of Achilles?

Or has it been changed?

EDIT: never mind you’re correct.

Actually I always thought that would have made more sense. When I think of Achilles it's always the bit about being dunked in the river styx and immune to weapons... (except for the heel that he was held by...) Courage may be a byproduct of being invulnerable... but for someone who is ALSO pretty invulnerable... it would have made sense to have that be his 'gift'.

[Midnight_v]

I think... the wisdom of solomon needs to be implicit to protect him from all fear based effects, mind control, and compulsions... and possessions both demonic and alien.
He's a natural foil to Starro and the such that way.

There should be NO scenes of him getting into diana's rope and forced to turn him power by saying his magic word no even in an elseworlds. There should be no "Durlan-tech to mimick your voice black adam"
Hes not Mr. Mxyzptlk... ffs.

I think the movie did him an injustice in a weird way. I'm not sure he should be "just a kid" with in a big body. I mean they make him a 14 year old in a Maserati. Instead of an otherwordly being possessed of the powers of Gods, they're greatest champion, and a demonbinding-king empowered by the host of the presence.

My final opinion on the matter is frankly he needs a prophecy or a future story arc that makes him big news in the universe that is more than "He replaces the wizard".

No. Something like one day far in the future its Billy Batson that kills Darkseid and ends it. Whatever happens... however long it takes... all the stryfe and turmoil and death, but in the end 20 years or in the far flung future of the legion
Billy f-ing Batson... is the one who finally takes his head in his and Crushes the skull of this aspect of The Omega. (Illustrated by Alex ross ofc).

Just saying that adds a bit more gravity to the character. It has implications. It implies that somewhere down the line, billy grows up. It implies that eventually he never turns back (because like adam he'd turn to dust if he left the rock of eternity)... It implies whats already know he's effectively immortal, and it implies that his greatest feats and arc is still ahead of him.

It doesn't have to be that EXACTLY. I'm just musing, because the problem of him "Jobbing" to superman 1st then all the way down to the scarecrow should MAYBE be set on the shelf for a bit.

I wanted him to be a Percival figure on justice league dark but they got WW instead and its ended being pretty good too, but that could have easily been Billy.

Point I'm trying to make is he needs his own gravity nowdays so he isn't getting treated poorly, but to be fair ... every superman - like figure gets treated badly in dc universe, because superman exisits *shrug*

[dswynne]

Unfortunately, courage and wisdom, as super-powers, have never been clearly defined these days. Until they are, well...we'll get a Superman clone.

Still, there are many possibilities we can develop.

Keeping strictly mental, the Wisdom of Solomon should allow Billy to be a strategist on par with Batman and Mister Terrific. He should be able to see multiple outcomes, with the best response to those outcomes at the forefront. And, Billy should be able to pick up new languages, including non-linguistic styles, quickly, as well as having explicit memory recall. And while Billy won't be inventing new ideas and concepts, he can apply existing ideas and concepts towards solving a problem. In other words, Billy would have been the one to confirm Jor-El's research on the destruction of Krypton, without having to do the actual research.

The Courage of Achilles would make Billy fearless, bar none. But simply being a "Man without fear" seems boring to me, which is why I think Billy should be skilled in battle tactics and martial arts. Meaning, while wisdom deals with the long term and with insights, tactics deals with things on an operational level. Ex: you're facing a horde of parademons on approach. what, in your surroundings, has the means of helping you to deal with it? And the martial arts aspects merely means how you use your existing combat skills to maximum effect. Billy may not be a martial artist like Batman, but he's an experienced brawler. Imagine that being enhanced to allow Billy to use what he already knows to defeat his enemies. Now, imagine Billy getting actual training in just, let's say, boxing. Now imagine that being enhanced to be battle ready...

And these ideas are just based on how wisdom and courage can be used as mental-oriented super powers...

[9th.]

What does invulnerability have to do with fear toxin, am I missing something?

[Midnight_v]

What does invulnerability have to do with fear toxin, am I missing something?

Maybe the definition: : immune to or proof against attack/incapable of being wounded, injured, or harmed

But more importantly Is this the description of the courage of Achilles: From the wiki:

A for the Courage of Achilles This aspect is mostly psychological and spiritual in nature. The courage of Achilles confers the mental fortitude of the legendary Greek hero, which gives him superhuman levels of inner strength, willpower, discipline, and resolve from which to draw upon in times of hopelessness. He is constantly supported by a harmonious sense of good will and unflinching courage and he never backs down from a challenge or feels any debilitating amount of fear or despair, even in the face of the most intimidating of opponents. In some stories, it also gives him fighting skills. It also aids the hero's mental fortitude against telepathy, mind control, and other mental attacks. In some stories, being powered by Achilles also provided Billy with the hero's near-invulnerability.

But also...

A for the Stamina of Atlas Using Atlas' stamina grants near-limitless resilience. He never feels fatigued or tired and as such does not require rest or sleep. His durability lets him withstand most types of extreme physical assaults with little to no harm. Also, any physical harm he does sustain heals in seconds without any discomfort or lingering signs of the harm. He has a supernaturally-endowed metabolism far beyond the normal realm of human physical activities, doesn't require nourishment or even air (although he can partake of them for personal enjoyment), and he can even survive unaided in space. Sustained by the magical energies coursing through his body, Billy's empowered form never ages, making him biologically immortal and he can potentially live forever with no decline in performance so long as he remains in that form, although his normal self will continue to age.

Frankly even if he breathed in fear toxin he wouldn't "Feel" any debilitating amount of fear. Though he doesn't NEED to Eat, Drink, or Breath requiring no physical nourishment anyway.

Dudes invulnerable b, giving him a fear from a chemical should be impossible and really ... its just bad writing from someone who didn't research the character or doesn't care to. Just a cheap throw away gimmick.

[dswynne]

Frankly even if he breathed in fear toxin he wouldn't "Feel" any debilitating amount of fear. Though he doesn't NEED to Eat, Drink, or Breath requiring no physical nourishment anyway.

Dudes invulnerable b, giving him a fear from a chemical should be impossible and really ... its just bad writing from someone who didn't research the character or doesn't care to. Just a cheap throw away gimmick.

Disagree. We're dealing with the Scarecrow, a master chemist who has created toxins that can effect even Superman. And remember this: Achilles was a demi-god who was granted the gift of PHYSICAL invulnerability, but was killed by a poison-tipped arrow via his heel, which was not immune to harm.

In other words, we're not dealing with a normal set of circumstances, which is why Billy's powers were getting wonky as a side-effect of the chemicals acting on Billy's brain. And when you READ the story, it is Billy who listens to the "voice" within:

...Use the fear. Embrace it. Become someone greater than fear...

While it is not explicitly stated, who is the say that the "Courage of Achilles" was not in play at this moment? Certainly, when Billy was able to focus, he fought off the effects of the toxins. At least, that is how I read the scene...

[Midnight_v]

Disagree. We're dealing with the Scarecrow, a master chemist who has created toxins that can effect even Superman. And remember this: Achilles was a demi-god who was granted the gift of PHYSICAL invulnerability, but was killed by a poison-tipped arrow via his heel, which was not immune to harm.

In other words, we're not dealing with a normal set of circumstances, which is why Billy's powers were getting wonky as a side-effect of the chemicals acting on Billy's brain. And when you READ the story, it is Billy who listens to the "voice" within:

...Use the fear. Embrace it. Become someone greater than fear...

While it is not explicitly stated, who is the say that the "Courage of Achilles" was not in play at this moment? Certainly, when Billy was able to focus, he fought off the effects of the toxins. At least, that is how I read the scene...

I don't know what you're disagreeing with.
Are you disagreeing with the Wiki description?
Where it says
"he never feels any debilitating effects from fear or despair."

Or... just thinking that I didn't read it?
I kinda think maybe you're point stands that he may have used the courage to shake it off, but really its pretty clear that he's described as "immune" to fear. Make if that what you will...

The master chemist bit is questionable too... but superman and captain marvel aren't the same because Billy is magical.

You could no more poison Shazam with mubdane chemicals that you could atlas or gaia or darkseid

If you told me had had magical poisons then yeah it would ring more true. ... but Im pretty sure if Scarecrow "spooked" darkseid with fear toxin people would call ot bad writing.
Which is kinda the point of the thread I think... the captain here is jobbed pretty bad and consistently so.

He never gets a spelled out on page what he's doing or using ar any point and doesn't have very may wins in the larger universe.

No...the do the kid wrong.