At what point do we stop calling Batman a normal human?

[babyblob]

This is not a bash Batman thread. I have enjoyed some of the newer stories, just not as much as the older stuff. Not looking to bash just looking to see what people who know more and are bigger fans of batman think about him now. And fans who have been reading him for years what do you think of him now vs years ago? I really enjoy the older stuff. The time when he worked with Gordon and thought of heroes like The Metal men as crime fighting equals. A time when a group of thugs worried him. A time when foes out of his weight class gave him a hard time and he had to look to Superman for help.

With the way he has been written over the years. A man who can solve any crime, any crisis. A man who can beat up a dozen armed thugs without breaking a sweat. A man who fights people way out of his weight class and not only stands his ground but at times wins. I mean lets be honest. A normal person should not be able to go against the likes of Superman, Green lantern, Flash and honestly be expected to give them a challenge that threatens them. I mean the other heroes look at him as some sort of god who is unbeatable. One of the appeals of Batman was that he was a normal human doing great thing in a world of gods. I feel like that magic has been lost.

So when do we say you know what he is not a normal human any more?

[Restingvoice]

Honestly, whenever he says he's only broken a few ribs and keep on fighting or when he went 7 days without sleep, but maybe that's too low of a bar...

When he's the world's greatest detective, one of the world's best fighter, top 3 best geniuses, top 2 richest people... pick one. No DM would allow this.

Oh. When they say he studied 127 different forms of martial arts then. That always makes me laugh.

[sifighter]

Personally I don’t think it’s he’s not a normal human, I think it’s more he’s a normal human who has learned to adapt to the shared DC Universe. If it was just stuff like Year one, then yeah he’s a guy in a costume fighting organized crime and later some insane/disfigured madmen.

However, Batman lives in a world with aliens, magic, gods, ape cities, multiple lantern corps based on emotions, alternate futures, alternate dimensions, universal forces, and etc. His best friends are an all powerful alien and a woman with connections to the Greek gods (I’m a little lost at this point if she is one herself but I digress). That means he adapts and gets access to all that stuff and he gets elevated in his position when he’s just an average man who has to make up for all the things that exist in the universe, such as an anti-lasso of truth that he got in a magic black market or a kryptonite ring or Jarro or baby Darkseid. It’s from that he probably gets the most respect in the hero community from not only being around the longest outside of the JSA, but also being an ordinary man who can deal with all the craziness the universe throws at him and wins.

Personally I like access to crazy tech Batman, makes him feel like he actually lives in the dc universe, also why I like Batman: Brave and the Bold.

[The True Detective]

Tbf can we really call *any* human in comics human?

Even weaker, more "realistic" characters like Green Arrow (especially the CW version) can do things no human in the real world could possibly do like fire an insane amount of arrows off at a time. I don't see why people are expecting fictional non-powered superheroes to be just like real people, movie characters like James Bond and John Wick also do things way beyond what even a highly trained real person is capable of.

And I don't see the problem with him being able to fight metas, it's no different than what Lex Luthor, Tony Stark, Dr. Doom, etc have been doing for decades. It's all down to how they have him fight them, if he uses tech and well timed strategy it's ok imo. He should never go to to toe in hand to hand combatant sans gadgets with the likes of Superman. That's stupid and insulting to Clark.

[XJlock]

Whenever he gained temporary superpowers.

[Will Evans]

When he reaches 50 years old and can’t move like he used to.

[cgh]

Yeah, I fully agree with you and this has been kind of a complaint I've had for a while (inasmuch as I care to complain about superhero comics). One of the endearing parts of older Batman was his sheer vulnerability. He got knocked around a lot, probably way more than newer readers are familiar with. The sense that he was just this really smart, physically fit guy created real tension as you didn't know if he'd mow down that crew of bad guys he just dropped in on or get completely smashed. I mean, a non-enhanced Hugo Strange was a threat just in a regular fist-fight.

There are precedents that justify rolling back Batman's god-tier abilities for the sake of fresh storytelling. For a recent example, Fraction and Aja's Hawkeye portrayed such a hero. He still did a lot of cool stuff but he was obviously mortal and spent a lot of time lying around after getting busted up. It was relatable and often pretty funny. You felt his aches and pains. I'm not suggesting copying the style or whatever, more the sense of mortality. I think this would also involve a massive scaling down of Wayne Enterprises, but that's another post entirely.

I understand why things are the way they are: Batman is DC's biggest hero and he has to be everywhere and able to defeat anyone. But I think something's been lost.

[charliehustle415]

I'll just leave this here:

[Jackalope89]

Nothing "normal" about him.
Functions on maybe 2-3 hours of sleep.
Can build just about anything from scratch.
Can somehow beat the entire Justice League, over and over.
Dodged Darkseid's undodgeable Omega Beams, when guys with super speed couldn't.

That's just scratching the surface. Bruce is the worst kind of meta-human; the Mary Sue!

[The True Detective]

Nothing "normal" about him.
Functions on maybe 2-3 hours of sleep.
Can build just about anything from scratch.
Can somehow beat the entire Justice League, over and over.
Dodged Darkseid's undodgeable Omega Beams, when guys with super speed couldn't.

That's just scratching the surface. Bruce is the worst kind of meta-human; the Mary Sue!

Ah, I was wondering when the tired "Batman's a Mary Sue!" comment was coming. Mary Sue's don't have actual character flaws which Bruce has in abundance so I never got that comment.

When people say he's a "normal" human they don't mean he's a average run of the mill guy they mean he isn't superpowered, just like someone like Leonardo da Vinci is normal in that he has no powers. He's still an extrodinary human who can do things very few others can.

[mathew101281]

he's what I call "action movie," normal human. Have you ever watched an action movie and said to yourself, "there is no way that would work in real life." Batman is that.

[Mace Dolex]

he's what I call "action movie," normal human. Have you ever watched an action movie and said to yourself, "there is no way that would work in real life." Batman is that.

Yeah so in a sense think of the Fast & The Furious franchise as a thinly veiled version of the Justice League, I mean if Vin Diesel and Dwayne Johnson can throw punches at each other without breaking a sweat then I believe Batman can do one up better.

[Caivu]

he's what I call "action movie," normal human. Have you ever watched an action movie and said to yourself, "there is no way that would work in real life." Batman is that.

This. human limits in fictional worlds can be beyond real-life limits without being superhuman within their own world.

[Zaresh]

Honestly, whenever he says he's only broken a few ribs and keep on fighting or when he went 7 days without sleep, but maybe that's too low of a bar...

When he's the world's greatest detective, one of the world's best fighter, top 3 best geniuses, top 2 richest people... pick one. No DM would allow this.

Oh. When they say he studied 127 different forms of martial arts then. That always makes me laugh.

I know my DMs wouldn't. Man, that breaks the game and piss off the players.

Bruce has been falling into Gary Stu territory. Why? Because, yes, he has flaws, but you rarely see those being pointed by the characters. And in the end, if they are actually pointed, they tend to work so that they make Bruce look better.
Not that it happens all the time, but it happens enough to be noticeable and kind of annoying. Also, he's the best best best at almost everything. Man, that's unrealistic.
Bruce and most of the vanilla mainstream superheroes really, are kind of ridiculous, to be fair. But Bruce is definitely one of the worst cases.