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  1. #16
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hgzip View Post
    I'm all for that. My issue was with the portrayal of the gods.
    Then why should the diversity of the Amazons stop with their gods?

    The Amazons we meet in Wonder Woman aren't the Amazons as the Greek presented them, so why should the Amazon gods be the same as the Greek presented them?

    (Not that DC ever really has managed that, but I digress…)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    I just expressed my preference, in another post, to see a Sudanese-looking Isis in a movie. I don't see the Afrophobia.

    The Valkyries chose the slain, spirited them to Asgard and served them mead, in Valhalla...comforted them, when they got there. I'm no stranger to Norse mythology.
    So why the reaction against a black Aphrodite, then?

    Also, remember that the "modern" depiction of the Valkyries was a very recent invention during the Viking era.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  2. #17
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    The art, alone, on this comic is award-worthy. While I wouldn't call it Diana's DKR, it makes a good read and tries something new, with the leading lady.

    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    ...So why the reaction against a black Aphrodite, then?...
    Do we need a black Aphrodite? There are numerous African heroes and myths waiting to be brought to life, in books and onscreen. If you welcome black Aphrodite, white Australian Osiris, ..enjoy the show.
    COMBINING THE BIGBADITUDE OF THANOS WITH CHEETAH'S FEROCITY, IS JANUS WONDER WOMAN'S GREATEST SUPERVILLAIN?...on WONDABUNGA!!! Look alive, Kangaliers!

  3. #18
    Chad Jar Jar Pinsir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    When Aphrodite and Greek mythology are presented to us, as classic, I think Western civilization is offering it up to be celebrated, consumed, traded and appropriated (fancy for 'adopted'), ..by everyone. Seriously...the West (US, Germany, France, UK, etc) presents its music, art, literature and media, as a gold standard of expression - classic. It's a little too late to tell us we can't have a Chinese or Cameroonian actress playing Aphrodite or gender-bending, ..as lesbian Ares. When you're working with the classics in modern and popular art, that is the price or consequence of artistic license.

    The ancient Greeks referred to Germans (the people who would found UK, France and Germany) as barbarians. By what right do these people have to claim ancient Greek mythology over African people? A lot of different groups took inspiration from Greek civilization, including Arabs, Slavs and Turks, but the Greeks took inspiration from many of their contemporaries (Persian, Egyptian, Mesopotamia). A lot of modern scholars are beginning to see Ancient Greek civilization as an off-shoot of Middle Eastern states, which it most certainly was.

    Also, Apollo in Brian Azzarello's run was black-coded. We've had 'African' Greek gods before.
    #InGunnITrust, #ZackSnyderistheBlueprint, #ReleasetheAyerCut

  4. #19
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    Do we need a black Aphrodite? There are numerous African heroes and myths waiting to be brought to life, in books and onscreen. If you welcome black Aphrodite, white Australian Osiris, ..enjoy the show.
    Do we need art at all?

    I have no idea if the creative team had any motive behind their choice, or if they simply decided to make one of the Five Mothers black. Doesn't really matter, because Aphrodite doesn't play much of a role in the story. But they did a creative choice there, and one that I think should be respected.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  5. #20
    Moderator Nyssane's Avatar
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    The fact that Aphrodite being black "disturbs" anyone is, in itself, disturbing.

  6. #21
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyssane View Post
    The fact that Aphrodite being black "disturbs" anyone is, in itself, disturbing.
    Yeah, Greek mythology was often self-contradictory to itself even when it was part of a more widely worshiped religion so I've never gotten the big deal of getting upset over later depictions going their own route.

  7. #22
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    The ancient Greeks referred to Germans (the people who would found UK, France and Germany) as barbarians. By what right do these people have to claim ancient Greek mythology over African people? A lot of different groups took inspiration from Greek civilization, including Arabs, Slavs and Turks, but the Greeks took inspiration from many of their contemporaries (Persian, Egyptian, Mesopotamia). A lot of modern scholars are beginning to see Ancient Greek civilization as an off-shoot of Middle Eastern states, which it most certainly was.

    Also, Apollo in Brian Azzarello's run was black-coded. We've had 'African' Greek gods before.
    Aye, that. I think once something becomes 'classical', it's up for mass consumption and interpretation. Aphrodite (or Venus) has always been 'black as a dark night' to me, anyway, ..at least, since the 80s...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4-1ASpdT1Y

    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Do we need art at all?

    I have no idea if the creative team had any motive behind their choice, or if they simply decided to make one of the Five Mothers black. Doesn't really matter, because Aphrodite doesn't play much of a role in the story. But they did a creative choice there, and one that I think should be respected.
    I think black, beautiful Aphrodite, Chiang's glazed Apollo and marble Artemis worked out, finely. I still sympathize with people, who want to see something of their ancestral cultures celebrated in popular media.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nyssane View Post
    The fact that Aphrodite being black "disturbs" anyone is, in itself, disturbing.
    I hope we can all have a little fun, with the classics, and try not to take them too seriously. Dr. Marston certainly didn't!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Yeah, Greek mythology was often self-contradictory to itself even when it was part of a more widely worshiped religion so I've never gotten the big deal of getting upset over later depictions going their own route.
    The Greeks are still the life of the party, at every local library! There's nothing quite like them, in print, anywhere in the world.
    COMBINING THE BIGBADITUDE OF THANOS WITH CHEETAH'S FEROCITY, IS JANUS WONDER WOMAN'S GREATEST SUPERVILLAIN?...on WONDABUNGA!!! Look alive, Kangaliers!

  8. #23
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyssane View Post
    The fact that Aphrodite being black "disturbs" anyone is, in itself, disturbing.
    She looks like she's going to be black in Historia as well, or at least darker skinned. Plus very curvy.

    But Aphrodite is apparently also considered equivalent to deities like Ishtar, Astarte and Isis, which I'm sure is being taken into consideration for her portrayal in Historia at least, if not here. In which case, her being non-white is probably more accurate than portraying her as white

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    She looks like she's going to be black in Historia as well, or at least darker skinned. Plus very curvy.

    But Aphrodite is apparently also considered equivalent to deities like Ishtar, Astarte and Isis, which I'm sure is being taken into consideration for her portrayal in Historia at least, if not here. In which case, her being non-white is probably more accurate than portraying her as white
    That seems an odd reason to make her black though. I'm not necessarily against her being black but I'm not sure if her being a counterpart to Ishtar, Astarte and Isis is quite a justification. Her being a mish mash of other deities (if that is what they are doing) is much more troubling to me.

  10. #25
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    That seems an odd reason to make her black though. I'm not necessarily against her being black but I'm not sure if her being a counterpart to Ishtar, Astarte and Isis is quite a justification. Her being a mish mash of other deities (if that is what they are doing) is much more troubling to me.
    I don't know if they are specifically making her black (though Jimenez cited Lizzo as an influence), but she doesn't look white.

    Why would it be troubling? It isn't a random mish mash. It is speculated that Aphrodite was not native to ancient Greek religions and she was influenced by other religions and cults in other regions. These include Sumerian Inana and Phoenician Astarte. It's pure speculation so far, but DeConnick tweeted a picture of a mountain of books she was doing research with, so it wouldn't surprise me if she was looking into the origins of a lot of the goddesses and how their cults formed and from which cultures they were influenced by. Aphrodite having different aspects/going by different names depending on where she is being worshiped wouldn't be unprecedented.
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I don't know if they are specifically making her black (though Jimenez cited Lizzo as an influence), but she doesn't look white.

    Why would it be troubling? It isn't a random mish mash. It is speculated that Aphrodite was not native to ancient Greek religions and she was influenced by other religions and cults in other regions. These include Sumerian Inana and Phoenician Astarte. It's pure speculation so far, but DeConnick tweeted a picture of a mountain of books she was doing research with, so it wouldn't surprise me if she was looking into the origins of a lot of the goddesses and how their cults formed and from which cultures they were influenced by. Aphrodite having different aspects/going by different names depending on where she is being worshiped wouldn't be unprecedented.
    Influenced maybe but this looks like just taking aspects of various love and beauty goddesses and mashing them into one character which ignores the uniqueness and differences of those cultures.

  12. #27
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Influenced maybe but this looks like just taking aspects of various love and beauty goddesses and mashing them into one character which ignores the uniqueness and differences of those cultures.
    Its too early to tell. Again its just speculation on my part.

    But we are getting multiple Amazon tribes who may be part of those other cultures. And Thats basically what
    The ancient Greeks did

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