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  1. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dboi2001 View Post
    Only in name. In character and personality they’re different. Mob boss Luthor hates Superman because he foils his schemes while president Luthor hated Superman because he didn’t like seeing an alien more powerful than him
    No, it's in continuity. Same Luthor. There is no Crisis event between those two, that's just writers progressing the character over time.

    Yeah but when an immediate threat like say a bomb is at play then he attacks immediately. Why would he wait for it to go to some unknown location? For all he knows it is could explode the ends day. Also this Batman isn’t a myth anymore people are quite aware about him. Instead of instilling fear through a myth he instills fear through pain
    If it's an immediate threat why isn't he nuking it from orbit with his Batwing? Because waiting is what he does, he's not supposed to be impulsive - that's what Robin's are chided for. But he doesn't know much, and he ended up stealing it anyway when he knew their location so what was the point of the chase?

    How about all the tumbler chases in Dark Knight or when he chased Joker down in Burton movies? Or the animated series where he flies an airplane after villains?
    He doesn't do run over people or drop cars on criminals with the Tumbler. He does, however, shield people from the Joker with it. Burton Batman is much more blood thirty than he's supposed to be, and the public's main reference for Batman was Adam West. In '89 he uses the Batplane to take the poison gas balloons away and when when he plays chicken with Joker he fires at surroundings not at people, this is why Joker's able to shoot him down.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJ1s-1eAoh8

    When Batman does that in TAS his plane is silent, people all over Gotham can't hear it coming miles away.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMLUi_pUb0M

    Yes it was. It was Superman believing he wasn’t acting like a real hero because people died under his protection. Superman isn’t doing anything illegal. If there is a flood and you are in a boat and you pick someone up who is stranded that isn’t illegal. He isn’t enacting vigilante justice on criminals just responding to natural disasters like floods
    Superman never talks much about it in any detail, with Perry or anyone else. Superman's not doing anything legal, he has no official authority or permission he just does as he pleases. He saves Lois from a dictator by flying him through walls as if this is something they do like a hobby, those two are very casual about that. He had no authority to shut down Batman, either. With implied death threats.

    [quote]Batman’s motivations are unclear? Are you sure? I’d argue Batman was more like the antagonist

    Superman's motivations are unclear, not Batman's.


    Then people would say Superman is a government stooge like in TDKR. Superman has rarely worked directly for the government. Also the government wanted to control him and know his identity instead of working with him.
    Read more things about Superman than DKR, things which are in canon or are inspired by canon like Superman TAS. We don't know the whole story what the government wanted because that plot line was dropped when the court exploded. Senator Finch also appeared to be trustworthy and her opinions on Superman when asked was "Superman just is" - hardly how someone acts if they truly thought he was awful. Superman's worked with the government as a free agent, he may not be an office employee but he does work with them that's what Man of Steel got right then dropped it in B vs S for no reason.

    When the virus is over I suggest reading Byrne's Superman: Man of Steel TPBs.

    And the mcu is “realistic” yet crossbones, a normal guy, survives a building collapsing on him. Hell Nolan Batman was suppose to be realistic and yet it takes huge leaps of logic
    This ins't about the MCU, it's about the DCEU and Snyder's was supposed to be continuing Nolan's "realism." For comic book adaptions Nolan is realistic, they're far more bound to reality than Snyder's are which confuses edginess for realism.

    What do you mean alienated? And Superman did agree to go to the Supreme Court and give his testimony. And no Superman doesn’t typically do interviews
    Someone who cuts off communication from the public and the press would be alienating those people, it's the opposite of what Superman's meant to be. Only when pressed, and unlike most people he didn't give any interviews to the press before hand when he had a chance too. What Superman media have you watched or read? That's not how Superman reacts to the press he's an open book.
    Superman isn't meant to be a stoic loner who has no friends, even Frank Miller got that right and Batman himself is like Wolverine - despite being a "loner" he's constantly surrounded by a surrogate family.


    Again in the ultimate cut we do see how the people of Gotham are afraid of Batman. It makes it clear that Batman is a broken man. We see the Robin suit and Bruce having nightmares. They weren’t vague hints
    Ultimate Cut wasn't the theatrical cut and that's the minimum Snyder could do with Batman. Nobody had these questions with Nolan, Burton or Schumacher. Those are hints not depth in exploring how he feels about those subjects. And he gets more characterisation than Superman!

  2. #272
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    What I meant was although they were canonically the same Luthor they really weren't the same personality or motives. Basically what I am getting at is characters change all the time. Like I am expected to believe that Batman in Scott Snyder's Justice League is the same as Tom King's Batman

    If it's an immediate threat why isn't he nuking it from orbit with his Batwing? Because waiting is what he does, he's not supposed to be impulsive - that's what Robin's are chided for. But he doesn't know much, and he ended up stealing it anyway when he knew their location so what was the point of the chase?
    Shooting a bomb doesn't disarm and would cause even more destruction. And he did wait before attacking with the Batmobile. Do you question other superhero movies as much as BvS? I am genuinely asking. I also doubt this Batwing is as silent

    Superman never talks much about it in any detail, with Perry or anyone else. Superman's not doing anything legal, he has no official authority or permission he just does as he pleases. He saves Lois from a dictator by flying him through walls as if this is something they do like a hobby, those two are very casual about that. He had no authority to shut down Batman, either. With implied death threats.
    That is basically the entire movie. What do you mean he doesn't talk about it in any detail? Perry White typically doesn't know the Clark is Superman so what does he have to do with it? He did talk with Lois and Martha the entire movie. I wouldn't say 'casual' as much as it was 'just trust me'. He only threatened Batman because he learned about how GCPD was enabling him

    Read more things about Superman than DKR, things which are in canon or are inspired by canon like Superman TAS. We don't know the whole story what the government wanted because that plot line was dropped when the court exploded. Senator Finch also appeared to be trustworthy and her opinions on Superman when asked was "Superman just is" - hardly how someone acts if they truly thought he was awful. Superman's worked with the government as a free agent, he may not be an office employee but he does work with them that's what Man of Steel got right then dropped it in B vs S for no reason.
    I have read more than just TDKR. Superman rarely works with the government. At the end of MoS we see that they sent a drone to spy on him. It wasn't even about the government it was a question about should Superman be able to operate. Finch was just one senator and she was killed because she was the only one who opposed Luthor. The court hearing wasn't even about Superman operating outside the law it was about him supposedly murdering the dictator's soldiers in africa

    Someone who cuts off communication from the public and the press would be alienating those people, it's the opposite of what Superman's meant to be. Only when pressed, and unlike most people he didn't give any interviews to the press before hand when he had a chance too. What Superman media have you watched or read? That's not how Superman reacts to the press he's an open book.
    Superman isn't meant to be a stoic loner who has no friends, even Frank Miller got that right and Batman himself is like Wolverine - despite being a "loner" he's constantly surrounded by a surrogate family.
    What makes you think he cut off communication from the public or press? It isn't like people were inviting him or giving invitations to talk. Also if you go off the horrible Justice League opening he talked to people casually when he had the chance. And when he was given the opportunity to testify for himself he accepted no strings attached. And yeah sure the guy with a double life is an open book and when Bendis had Superman tell the world he was Clark Kent everyone lost it

    I'm sorry dude but you ask me what Superman media I have watched or read? What DC media have you watched or read? Because I just don't get your interpretations of these characters like saying Batman is hopeful, Superman is an open book and he works with the government

  3. #273
    Extraordinary Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Superman should be the last person working for any government or regime. Just saying.Superman does have double life and secrets.But,that doesn’t he cannot be an open book in other matters that's not connected to his privacy and personal life.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 08-02-2020 at 11:42 PM.

  4. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dboi2001 View Post
    What I meant was although they were canonically the same Luthor they really weren't the same personality or motives. Basically what I am getting at is characters change all the time. Like I am expected to believe that Batman in Scott Snyder's Justice League is the same as Tom King's Batman
    That's still canon with those Lex's. Yes, change they still remain the same character unless something is retconned into it not being that. Characters progress but they still are technically the same people. Exactly, to DC they're the same person.

    Shooting a bomb doesn't disarm and would cause even more destruction. And he did wait before attacking with the Batmobile. Do you question other superhero movies as much as BvS? I am genuinely asking. I also doubt this Batwing is as silent
    Bombing things wouldn't be out of character for this Batman. When? Sure. I gave you examples of it being silent from two sources. The DCEU Batwing is not silent, that's the problem.

    That is basically the entire movie. What do you mean he doesn't talk about it in any detail? Perry White typically doesn't know the Clark is Superman so what does he have to do with it? He did talk with Lois and Martha the entire movie. I wouldn't say 'casual' as much as it was 'just trust me'. He only threatened Batman because he learned about how GCPD was enabling him
    The movie doesn't get into any details about what thinks about anything. Exactly what I said. He doesn't have to, Clark can talk to his colleagues about his views on Superman without revealing his identity, it's a common trope in super-hero fiction. Not enough, and it's silly that they're the only people he's discuss Superman with since Superman is an iconic figure in the world. It's come up everywhere. He'd draw attention to himself by not talking about Superman, especially since he's a reporter. That level of trust wouldn't be sufficient just from what they did in Man of Steel. He shouldn't be threatening anyone like he's a mob enforcer and he has no authority to do it.

    I have read more than just TDKR. Superman rarely works with the government. At the end of MoS we see that they sent a drone to spy on him. It wasn't even about the government it was a question about should Superman be able to operate. Finch was just one senator and she was killed because she was the only one who opposed Luthor. The court hearing wasn't even about Superman operating outside the law it was about him supposedly murdering the dictator's soldiers in africa
    Like what? I disagree. Which he should out of the sky as a warning, after that he had no relationship with them. Except how worked with the government in Man of Steel is perfectly in character for Superman, he's what we call a "team player." I know that about Finch but they are hardly trying to "control" him. Which went nowhere, so now we won't even know the details of the opinions of the government from him on that matter.

    What makes you think he cut off communication from the public or press? It isn't like people were inviting him or giving invitations to talk. Also if you go off the horrible Justice League opening he talked to people casually when he had the chance. And when he was given the opportunity to testify for himself he accepted no strings attached. And yeah sure the guy with a double life is an open book and when Bendis had Superman tell the world he was Clark Kent everyone lost it
    Because the movie doesn't show or imply he did talk to them, and they show in the film he never goes to the press - like before and after the court hearing. He does nothing. They don't have to, he can go to them, which he doesn't because he doesn't try have contacts anywhere. And he did that passively, and only because he thought he had to and he still didn't do the bare minimum people do with situations like that like talking to the press, which would have come in handy once Lex blew up the court room and Snyder completely ignored the implications of him not doing this afterward. That's not what I meant by "open book," just taking to people honestly and gaining their trust and contacts - many, many super-heroes do this.

    I'm sorry dude but you ask me what Superman media I have watched or read? What DC media have you watched or read? Because I just don't get your interpretations of these characters like saying Batman is hopeful, Superman is an open book and he works with the government
    Because I'm trying figure out your context and it appears to be primarily based on the DCEU and DKR. Better question would be what DC media I haven't watched. lol Arrow-verse, Christopher Reeve movies, Superman Returns, Birds of Prey (tv show), all the DCEU, DCAU, Young Justice, Smallville, Superboy tv show and others. For comics: the Byrne Superman, Loeb, Busiek, Kelly, Morrison's JLA, Crisis of Infinite Earths and many more. Batman is hopeful in Nolan's trilogy, that's what his symbolism is about.

    Edit: This is what I'm talking about:



    For context, the Blur is Superman's identity as a super-hero before he became Superman and Lois isn't in the loop yet. Watch Smallvillle, the series is filled with scenes about Clark about "supernatural" activities and the Blur with people who don't know he's the one doing them.
    Last edited by Steel Inquisitor; 08-03-2020 at 06:17 AM.

  5. #275
    Extraordinary Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    "Team player"huh? ,superman is a vigilante strongman who fights for the little guy by bulling their bullies. If people think superman would work with the government or regime by relinquishing his ideals and being a stooge like in dark knight returns. They are the ones who needs to read more superbooks.Sure,enough superman would ally with anyone if his ideals aren't compromised. Which is what happened in man of steel. But, that's just an alliance. He would smash any government that oppresses people.



    This guy right here is an independent agent fighting a never ending battle for truth justice.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 08-03-2020 at 07:19 AM.

  6. #276
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    This whole "true to canon" discussion is truly the best example of double standards applied to Snyder. Especially when you compare the same sentiment to how MCU handled the matter. Tony Stark wasn't really this quip master in the comics, Professor Hulk was a completely different take, Thor becoming Star-Lord 2.0 was effing praised, what kind of joke is that? People actually argue that MCU Spiderman is closer to classic Parker than to Miles? Hehe this is hilarious.

    Take Lex Luthor. I dare all of you comics experts to prove to me how Hackman's or Spacey's were closer to the comics than Eisenberg's was to Secret Origin and Birthright. Should be an easy job I would guess.

  7. #277
    Mighty Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adamTPTK View Post
    This whole "true to canon" discussion is truly the best example of double standards applied to Snyder. Especially when you compare the same sentiment to how MCU handled the matter. Tony Stark wasn't really this quip master in the comics, Professor Hulk was a completely different take, Thor becoming Star-Lord 2.0 was effing praised, what kind of joke is that? People actually argue that MCU Spiderman is closer to classic Parker than to Miles? Hehe this is hilarious.

    Take Lex Luthor. I dare all of you comics experts to prove to me how Hackman's or Spacey's were closer to the comics than Eisenberg's was to Secret Origin and Birthright. Should be an easy job I would guess.
    Can't speak for others but my problem with DCEU Lex is that's it's kind of just a bad performance all around of a poorly-written character, regardless of how close it is to the comics. Hackman wasn't close to how Lex was in his time either but he was at least a good performance in a role that fit the movie it was in.

  8. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Can't speak for others but my problem with DCEU Lex is that's it's kind of just a bad performance all around of a poorly-written character, regardless of how close it is to the comics. Hackman wasn't close to how Lex was in his time either but he was at least a good performance in a role that fit the movie it was in.
    Poorly written meaning?

  9. #279
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Can't speak for others but my problem with DCEU Lex is that's it's kind of just a bad performance all around of a poorly-written character, regardless of how close it is to the comics. Hackman wasn't close to how Lex was in his time either but he was at least a good performance in a role that fit the movie it was in.
    Hackman's performance was good and did fit the movie he was in, but only because Lex and parts of Superman were in Batman '66 territory
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  10. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    "Team player"huh? ,superman is a vigilante strongman who fights for the little guy by bulling their bullies. If people think superman would work with the government or regime by relinquishing his ideals and being a stooge like in dark knight returns. They are the ones who needs to read more superbooks.Sure,enough superman would ally with anyone if his ideals aren't compromised. Which is what happened in man of steel. But, that's just an alliance. He would smash any government that oppresses people.
    That he is, that's why he has so many friends and allies rather than just Lois and Martha. For example, Dr. Emil Hamilton (STAR Labs), his Super family (Superboy, Supergirl, Steel), Dan Turpin (Metropolis police), Bill Henderson (Metropolis police commissioner), Maggie Sawyer (Metropolis police), the Justice League, Lex Luthor and Tess Mercer in Smallville, the general in Man of Steel was supposed to be J'onn J'onz. Semantics, no-one is suggesting he be a government lapdog like in DKR - which was a parody/deconstruction of Superman. The problem is Snyder's Superman did everything to avoid allying himself with anyone not named Lois Lane and his his parents. He didn't retain any contacts with the general from Man of Steel, Lois went to him.

    Snyder's Superman only did something like that once, and it was trying to rescue his girlfriend he isn't a member of The Authority overthrowing governments. That's not something DC has him doing.

    "Strong man" has bad connotations, he's not supposed to be Ultraman or Injustice Superman.




    This guy right here is an independent agent fighting a never ending battle for truth justice.
    That's not Snyder's Superman and Golden Age Superman hasn't been relevant in forever. Snyder's has call backs and aesthetics to that version but he's not doing anything like that in the movies.
    The most he does is killing dictators who hold Lois hostage, the rest of it is natural disasters and things like stopping spaceships explode.
    Last edited by Steel Inquisitor; 08-03-2020 at 06:58 PM.

  11. #281
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    I'm frankly shocked that anyone could think Superman killed that warlord when he save Lois.

  12. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    That he is, that's why he has so many friends and allies rather than just Lois and Martha. For example, Dr. Emil Hamilton (STAR Labs), his Super family (Superboy, Supergirl, Steel), Dan Turpin (Metropolis police), Bill Henderson (Metropolis police commissioner), Maggie Sawyer (Metropolis police), the Justice League, Lex Luthor and Tess Mercer in Smallville, the general in Man of Steel was supposed to be J'onn J'onz. Semantics, no-one is suggesting he be a government lapdog like in DKR - which was a parody/deconstruction of Superman. The problem is Snyder's Superman did everything to avoid allying himself with anyone not named Lois Lane and his his parents. He didn't retain any contacts with the general from Man of Steel, Lois went to him.
    Most of the people you listed here either died in the first movie or don't even exist in the DCEU. It has nothing to do with him refusing to ally himself with anyone else and if Lois was maintaining contact with the general, then obviously Clark must have trusted him. It would be like calling Wonder Woman a lone wolf because the Wonder Girls, the Kapatealis, the embassy staff and all her other supporting cast from the comics aren't in the movies.

  13. #283
    Astonishing Member batnbreakfast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adamTPTK View Post
    Poorly written meaning?
    Which version of Luthor threatens with candy and piss jars?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightning Rider View Post
    I'm frankly shocked that anyone could think Superman killed that warlord when he save Lois.
    The movie being unclear about this is a good argument for the writer's storytelling skills.
    Last edited by batnbreakfast; 08-03-2020 at 11:35 PM.

  14. #284
    Extraordinary Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post

    That's not Snyder's Superman and Golden Age Superman hasn't been relevant in forever.
    What the hell are you on about?Goldenage superman is more relevant than any superman. If there is no siegel and shuster superman. There is no superman at all. Every version, even the"classic" postcrisis superman and "classic" donner superman draws its existence from goldenage superman. That's the original superman. Snyder's superman uses goldenage origin beats, the guys breaks limits instead of being limitless and acts as an independent agent against the oppressed, is working class... Etc.he works as a fisherman, on a dining place, as a journalist... Etc.He lives in a small apartment. This guy is more superman than modern interpretations.
    "You are afraid of me because you can't control me.And You never will".
    Finally, being friends or Allies is one thing. Working for them, doing their bidding.. Etc are another. Heck! Even working with guys like dan turpin and Maggie sawyer should have tension as clark is a vigilante.

    This should be the general relationship between clark and authorities. There should be a distance.
    You just named of a lot of cast members. That's not really what i am talking about. Superman is vigilante.He is a criminal.he chose that life. Him working for a government is a stupid idea.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 08-04-2020 at 12:06 AM.

  15. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by batnbreakfast View Post
    Which version of Luthor threatens with candy and piss jars?
    Quirks aren't bad writing, but thanks for clarifying it's not based on anything substantial.

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