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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Everyone is like that, we all have tastes and make choices based on our tastes. He didn't see the need for jimmy, when he already had gender bended version of him in daily planet.
    If you’re talking about Jenny her last name was Jurwich not Olsen. Interesting theory I saw though was that Lois was a combination of Jimmy and Lois Lane since she has red hair and takes her own photos though I think it’s just a coincidence that Amy Adams is a ginger

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dboi2001 View Post
    If you’re talking about Jenny her last name was Jurwich not Olsen. Interesting theory I saw though was that Lois was a combination of Jimmy and Lois Lane since she has red hair and takes her own photos though I think it’s just a coincidence that Amy Adams is a ginger
    Amy Adams isn't a natural redhead.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    That's...kind of what I'm saying though? General audiences don't care about faithful adaptations if the film is good because they don't read comics, and even fanboys can concede when they like a change. Superman has a bigger hurdle when it comes to changes since he's such a big name with preconceived notions, BUT I also said the film drew from source material that the general audience didn't know about and that previous adaptations had put their own spin on things. This one wasn't fully embraced because it didn't have as much mass appeal.

    It's still a darker take on Superman than people are accustomed to, not necessarily just of himself but of the world he lives in. Saying it's less dark than Homelander (duh) doesn't magically mean it's comparatively darker takes on Superman and Batman than the mainstream are used to.
    There is a difference between simply saying Snyder's Superman was a darker take than people are used to and comparing him to the likes of Ultraman and Homelander. The latter is pretty common among Snyder's detractors. I just saw a comment on another thread flat out calling Cavill's Superman Ultraman.

  4. #49
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    There is a difference between simply saying Snyder's Superman was a darker take than people are used to and comparing him to the likes of Ultraman and Homelander. The latter is pretty common among Snyder's detractors. I just saw a comment on another thread flat out calling Cavill's Superman Ultraman.
    And that comment is wrong and undermining itself with hyperbole, but it doesn't invalidate any other criticisms aimed at Snyder's Superman.
    It has received criticisms from people who have no idea who Ultraman is after all.

  5. #50
    Extraordinary Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dboi2001 View Post
    It’s kinda apples and oranges. The Nolan movies were trying to be more realistic from the comics. While the MCU has made significant changes they have nailed the main super heroes so it’s disappointing to see how different spider-man is. I do think there is some double standards. For example people constantly say for example Scarlet Witch’s comic costume is silly but then complain the X Men aren’t in their accurate suit and when Pyslocke gets her accurate suit they say it looked silly. I just don’t get how Zack Snyder can be accused of not respecting comics when MCU mocks Ant Man or Star Lord directly
    It isn't a DC or MCU thing though. You are trying to compare what Snyder's tastes are to someone else when we are only looking at Snyder's tastes on their own merit. His movies are prof that he doesn't respect the ridiculous or outlandish elements of comic stories. Which is fine. It doesn't mean he can't respect other elements. He can enjoy what he wants as can everyone else. People have different tastes just like how Nolan also liked the more grounded and serious aspects of the comics he was adapting, but the big difference is that Nolan just ignored them and Snyder actively tried to kill them off.

    Like with him seeing no value in a character like Jimmy, killing Robin, and him wanting Clark to really suffer because in his mind he can't understand why Clark would be happy-go-lucky. To Snyder the idea of Robin as a young sidekick to his version of Batman is completely alien and he could never envision his Batman running around with a young sidekick. So he wanted to have Robin be dead to rid the character of what he didn't enjoy or respect from the comic lore rather than just ignore it.

    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Everyone is like that, we all have tastes and make choices based on our tastes. He didn't see the need for jimmy, when he already had gender bended version of him in daily planet.
    I wouldn't say everyone falls into his kind of narrow tastes though. I enjoy serious and grim stories, but I also really enjoy the ridiculous and fantastical elements of comic stories too. So I have certain tastes but they are more varied.

  6. #51
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    I don't understand. what's so dark about snyder's superman?
    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    I wouldn't say everyone falls into his kind of narrow tastes though. I enjoy serious and grim stories, but I also really enjoy the ridiculous and fantastical elements of comic stories too. So I have certain tastes but they are more varied.
    The guy put in a quote from all star superman. He had the flight sequence which pretty awesome.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 06-05-2020 at 07:18 AM.

  7. #52
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    David Goyer writing MOS needs to be taken into account for some of the differences with the much busier and more deconstructionist take in BvS; he can be inconsistent with his adapting work, but he’s arguably a more clear-headed comic fan than Snyder, and generally more likely to hit the right track with a character when he looks at the foundational material. Where he gets more risky is when he embraces a change in interpretation - sometime he works great there, and sometimes he doesn’t. And I think Goyer being Nolan’s guy on MOS helped him have a more stabilizing influence on Snyder’s work than Terrio had in BVS.

    MOS doesn’t strike as nearly as much of a deconstruction as much as it’s someone embracing the Post-Crisis philosophy of the character with elements of the Birthright, but lacking some of the energy in both. Superman’s still the epitome of a selfless altruist, Lois is basically her Post-Crisis self without her military-brat background (which I do miss, actually), Clark wins the appreciation of the authority figures in a pretty classically Superman way, and Zod and co. actually benefit overall from the straightforward take they get, fusing the strengths of the Silver Age concept with a Post-Crisis approach.

    Only Jonathon Kent really feels like a deconstruction of the expected ideas for Superman’s world... and that’s where I think the debates about MOS come in, because there’s some aftershocks that impact the rest of the story from him. Having Superman’s father be the one element that really zigs where the rest of the story pretty reliably zags puts a different light on some of it - something like the scene where Pete’s mom turns out to actually be thankful about Clark saving the bus instead of scared (which is actually a great twist on stereotypes and arguably *positive* deconstruction of a traditional trope) gets undercut by having Jonathon then hem and haw about the worst case scenario and seem to dampen his son’s heroism. You can see what they were trying to do... but it’s the on learn of the film that I think was a genuine misfire...

    ...Aaaaand unfortunately I think ti was the one part that Snyder himself was deeply interested in.
    Hmm, yeah thinking on it, for the most part it's a fairly standard Superman origin retelling (mainly a more compressed version of the first two Donner films through Snyder's filter) than an out-and-out deconstruction of the Superman story, like say Brightburn attempted. With as you say, Johnathon Kent being the only real outlier from how he's traditional presented.

  8. #53
    Extraordinary Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    The guy put in a quote from all star superman. He had the flight sequence which pretty awesome.
    That isn't really the same thing. What I'm talking about would be him using Krypto. I can't imagine Snyder looking at Krypto and thinking the character is worth his time.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    It isn't a DC or MCU thing though. You are trying to compare what Snyder's tastes are to someone else when we are only looking at Snyder's tastes on their own merit. His movies are prof that he doesn't respect the ridiculous or outlandish elements of comic stories. Which is fine. It doesn't mean he can't respect other elements. He can enjoy what he wants as can everyone else. People have different tastes just like how Nolan also liked the more grounded and serious aspects of the comics he was adapting, but the big difference is that Nolan just ignored them and Snyder actively tried to kill them off.

    Like with him seeing no value in a character like Jimmy, killing Robin, and him wanting Clark to really suffer because in his mind he can't understand why Clark would be happy-go-lucky. To Snyder the idea of Robin as a young sidekick to his version of Batman is completely alien and he could never envision his Batman running around with a young sidekick. So he wanted to have Robin be dead to rid the character of what he didn't enjoy or respect from the comic lore rather than just ignore it.



    I wouldn't say everyone falls into his kind of narrow tastes though. I enjoy serious and grim stories, but I also really enjoy the ridiculous and fantastical elements of comic stories too. So I have certain tastes but they are more varied.
    The Robin thing is a bit interesting, because I initially figured that they were including the suit and his death as a way of having Clark or Lois uncover a reason outside of the Battle for Metropolis for his getting darker - a bereaved father/brother has plenty of explanation for getting meaner and more bitter. And having Superman discover that the vigilante/superhero life can have those kinds of pains and sorrows with an older Batman would have been an excellent way to grow their understanding of each other while maintaining some hostility from Batman.

    But after the film came out, I think it became clear that the dead Robin was maybe more of either a “meta” thing, or even just aping The Dark Knight Returns alone - Snyder’s Batman seems pretty clearly defined by the Miller version of Batman, instead of being a veteran of the regular comics continuity where he likely would have at least had both Dick and Jason as Robin... and I think that might just be an abstract enough difference to define how this Batman feels a bit ungainly trying to ally with Superman.

    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    I don't understand. what's so dark about snyder's superman?


    The guy put in a quote from all star superman. He had the flight sequence which pretty awesome.
    Snyder’s Superman seems dark because of different stuff across the two Snyder films, though I’d argue things shift a bit more as we get deeper into the DCEU.

    And again, Man Of Steel was a production directed by Snyder, written by David Goyer, and produced by Christopher Nolan... and we know they at least all had input on the final story: Goyer and Snyder together proposed Superman killing Zod under extreme duress to save lives, and had to get the go-ahead from Nolan by convincing him of that idea’s merits.

    ...So it may not have been Snyder taking the All Star Superman quote and sticking it in there, but Goyer instead. Snyder *is*, however, the guy behind the visuals of the flight scene; I think that he was in a good partnership with Goyer under Nolan, and Man Of Steel was better for it overall.

    Because Man Of Steel strikes me as being more genuinely optimistic and idealistic with Superman than Batman V Superman is; I mean, you’d expect Batman to bring the cynicism and darkness, but BvS brings plenty of that with Superman to, and that may be the result of Snyder being the main creative force without peer on BvS.

    Man of Steel has several sequences where we see Superman inspire others, gain their confidence, or simply have both them proven worthy of his faith: the other kids on the bus and their parents (along with, implicitly, the entire town of Smallville) respect him and refuse to sell him out under Zod’s threats, he gains the support of the military after the Battle of Smallville, and even when he’s not present, we see humans are worthy in stuff like Perry and even Lombard staying behind to try and rescue Jenny. Outside of Jonathon Kent, the movie really is hopeful and optimistic - the tragedy of Zod’s death is that he removed any other option for Clark even when Clark begged him to surrender, and Clark is scarred by it because killing is a bad thing.

    Batman V Superman is *different* in that respect towards Superman and the world around him. Now, it’s not totally disenchanted with idealism, hope, etc.... but it does seem much more cynical and less interested in the idealistic trappings of Superman, and seems to feel that a stronger argument must be made for Superman than Man of Steel made. We’ve got a much larger segment of the regular human character blaming Superman or doubting him, there’s a bit of a colder, more detached treatment of Clark’s POV this time by the director, the theatrical cut features him getting demoralized enough to abandon Superman for a while, we revisit the questionable version of Pa Kent *again*, and Snyder has Superman seem to genuinely contemplate killing Batman before their fight. Now, it all ends the right way, but the path to ge there is a bit dubious and maybe a bit too critical of Superman on the way.

    I think it’s a similar POV to, say, Star Wars: The Last Jedi - both Zack Snyder Snyder and Rian Johnson are more interested in the morose dark male lead, and feel the need to deconstruct the more “goody-godly” hero before trying to treat him more genuinely and reconstruct him. I think some of the difference between the two is that 1) Star Wars has a stronger undercurrent of operatic darkness that made it easier for TLJ’s cynicism to be accepted on a surface level read of the film, and 2) Snyder was also trying to is tuff in just far too much stuff in BvS, while TLJ arguably had far too little.

    Weirdly, I’d say that both BvS and TLJ had different after-effects that show where they did things better than the other - TLJ was more focused, so a lot of the debate about it has to do with concept and deeper readings of the film vs the clutter and over-stuffer nature of BvS... but BvS still had a slightly better handle on Superman in its deconstruction phase and handled the majority of its characters better as well.

    Both had sequels trying to adjust afterwards - The Rise of Skywalker was trying to meld some of The Force Awakens’s goodwill and ideas with The Last Jedi’s idea’s *and* trying to bring a conclusive end to the story, while Justice League wound up trying to answer BvS’s backlash and launch more superhero movies. TROS was disappointing but still profitable while Justice League was a flop... but BvS wasn’t a liability to Wonder Woman’s movie, Justice League wasn’t a liability toward Aquaman’s movie, while I’d argue that TLJ was a liability towards the Star Wars brand and especially the characters, hurting Luke, Han, Leia, Rey, and Finn and with only Kylo *maybe* benefitting from the shifts that TROS tried to honor from TLJ.
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

    I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    To Snyder the idea of Robin as a young sidekick to his version of Batman is completely alien and he could never envision his Batman running around with a young sidekick. So he wanted to have Robin be dead to rid the character of what he didn't enjoy or respect from the comic lore rather than just ignore it.


    Citation needed. All I've seen about the dead Robin thing is that it was done because that happened in the comics. Nothing was said about Snyder hating Robin and the dead Robin being Dick wasn't even an idea that left the cutting room floor.

  11. #56
    Mighty Member LifeIsILL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    He doesn't respect the more corny or fantastical elements of comics. He doesn't see value in outlandish or ridiculous elements and only likes the dark, grim, grounded, and serious pieces of the lore. His DC and Watchmen movies are proof of that. Him killing Jimmy Olsen unceremoniously at the start of BvS because he didn't see the point of the character and thought it would be cool just to kill him forms the kind of tastes he has for the properties. So he respects certain stories, but his love or passion for them is limited to a certain type of story rather than encompassing the whole thing.
    Except Jesse Eisenberg's Lex Luthor was super corny and cheesy.

  12. #57
    Extraordinary Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Citation needed. All I've seen about the dead Robin thing is that it was done because that happened in the comics. Nothing was said about Snyder hating Robin and the dead Robin being Dick wasn't even an idea that left the cutting room floor.
    I think Snyder confirmed a while back that the dead Robin was Dick and not Jason. Dick is who Joker killed in his universe. Snyder probably wanted to go full Dark Knight Returns rather than just take elements from it.

    Quote Originally Posted by LifeIsILL View Post
    Except Jesse Eisenberg's Lex Luthor was super corny and cheesy.
    I feel like that was more on Eisenberg's acting in how he tried to play a lively character, haha.

  13. #58
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    There is a difference between simply saying Snyder's Superman was a darker take than people are used to and comparing him to the likes of Ultraman and Homelander. The latter is pretty common among Snyder's detractors. I just saw a comment on another thread flat out calling Cavill's Superman Ultraman.
    Yeah, that drives me nuts too - or comparing him to Dr. Manhattan is another common one.

    Dr. Manhattan struggles to care about the world. Superman cares so much it hurts. Dr. Manhattan felt he couldn't help in ways that mattered despite being able to see the future - Superman helps all he can, and is very troubled when the future turns out badly. They really have little in common, except for being perceived as gods - and Superman certainly has nothing in common with the neo-fascist or crime boss analogues from the Boys and the Crime Syndicate!

    On an absolutely unrelated note, I do have a jokey idea for an Ultraman story called "Owlman v Ultraman: Justice of the Dons".
    "You know the deal, Metropolis. Treat people right or expect a visit from me."

  14. #59
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    That isn't really the same thing. What I'm talking about would be him using Krypto. I can't imagine Snyder looking at Krypto and thinking the character is worth his time.
    Most of hollywood used to think that. Moreover, man of steel wasn't going for a whimsical adventures tone nor a action comedy.Tell me this, why don't they use jimmy with wierd transformation or Superdickery now in superman comics? Because dc wants their stories to be taken more seriously now. Snyder wanted to do something serious with superman. Whether or not that succeeded is a different issue.

    I think the protagonist got bogged down by the seriousness induced by the story. Snyder was unable to counterbalance that without it shifting the tone of movie through out.Other than that, i don't see much deconstruction or "darkness" in these movies.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 06-05-2020 at 10:47 AM.

  15. #60
    Extraordinary Member Badou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Most of hollywood used to think that. Moreover, man of steel wasn't going for a whimsical adventures tone nor a action comedy.Tell me this, why don't they use jimmy with wierd transformation or Superdickery now in superman comics? Because dc wants their stories to be taken more seriously now. Snyder wanted to do something serious with superman. Whether or not that succeeded is a different issue.

    I think the protagonist got bogged down by the seriousness induced by the story. Snyder was unable to counterbalance that without it shifting the tone of movie through out.Other than that, i don't see much deconstruction or "darkness" in these movies.
    The current Jimmy Olsen comic by Fraction is pretty ridiculous. It isn't meant to be taken seriously at all. That is the kind of story I think Snyder would look at with embarrassment. Plus many of the main Superman books have had some ridiculous stories as well the past 5 years or so. It just depends on who the writer is but there always seems to be a good mix in the comics typically.

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