Originally Posted by
Blind Wedjat
I'm...not even sure what your point is here?
Whatever conversation Clark and Jonathan had in BvS does not retroactively change whatever conversation they didn't have in MoS. That's not how good storytelling works. If a sequel was needed to justify what happened in a previous movie, then said previous movie failed in communicating this message. At least that's what I think you're getting at, right? That the conversation about the horses that died because of what Jonathan did one time is somehow a justification for why he killed Zod (which, again, I do not have a problem with in theory). Except that's not what that scene was even about? It was referencing the bomb killing those people at the Senate hearing, which is why Superman goes to the mountains in the first place.
Also, what? Characters talking about whether or not they should kill to protect people isn't murder. That is such a huge leap for you to take and that's not how premeditation of murder even works. What are you honestly talk about here?
We agree on this so, what exactly are you trying to say here? I don't need a detailed explanation of what Jor-El did. I get it.
As you have admitted yourself, Superman does not have a reason why he does what he does. As you have admitted yourself, it is Jor-El that convinces him to become Superman. You know what that makes Superman? An extremely passive character, and I have a right to criticise just how passive he is. Passive characters aren't inherently bad and it doesn't mean passive characters don't ever do things. What it means is that passive characters are driven along by the plot and are forced to act because of how the story changes. To contrast, active characters make choices that affect the plot. Superman's passivity is to a point that he is unrelatable to me.
Take Iron Man for example. Tony Stark is a great active character because his decisions to build his own armour and escape captivity, end his weapons selling division and become Iron Man affect the plot of the film. By contrast, Superman only reveals himself because Zod already told the world he existed. Even though it's at the end of the film, Tony revealing himself to be Iron Man isn't something he's forced to do, it's something he chooses to do even when told otherwise. By contrast again, whatever narrative tension Man of Steel was going to have with Superman "answering the call" is because we already know within the first 20 minutes that he will save people. That's my point.
His passivity is even worse in BvS, not only because he falls victim to Lex's machinations but he does not even try to sway the public's opinion one bit. He himself admits he does not even care about what is said about him (even though he constantly looks upset about it). Him trying to investigate Batman's brutal streak doesn't even matter in the grand scheme of things because he's forced to confront Batman for a completely different reason. There's a reason why Superman having such little lines of dialogue is a problem in that movie.
If Superman only saves people because it's what Jor-El believed he was capable of, and its simply because he can do it, then it comes across more as a burden than a choice (and he acts like it is). That's completely different from Captain America, who went out of his way to do everything possible to get enlisted because he wanted to serve his country, even though he was physically incapable of doing so. It's by constantly trying to get enlisted that Dr Erskine was able to notice him and gave him a chance because he thought he possessed the innate qualities that will allow the SSS experiment to be a success. Steve may have had Captain America thrust upon him, but he actively sought out to do the things Captain America would do, he was worthy of the mantle. Superman on the other hand, only sought out to discover who he was, and then Jor-El convinces him to be a hero afterwards.
None of this address my point though. If Superman had such a visceral reaction to killing Zod, an act he was forced into and seemingly immediately regretted it, then why does he not try to avoid doing it again? What narrative purpose does Doomsday serve other than to kill Superman because it's an iconic thing that happened? What themes does Doomsday reflect in BvS? BvS is about whether or not Superman should be allowed to act unilaterally. Both Lex and Batman hate Superman because he's too powerful and they think he's too dangerous. Lex Luthor especially hates him because he likens him to God, and God didn't stop his father from abusing him, which means Superman despite all his power does not protect the weak. And Batman hated him because he felt he was responsible for the deaths of hundreds/thousands including his own employees. The presence or use of Doomsday do not reinforce those ideas. If the world needs to be convinced that Superman is too dangerous, then why is Doomsday needed to kill him? Wouldn't a raging monster that Superman is trying to protect the world from prove that he's a necessary force of good? If Lex believes Superman cannot protect those who are weak, then wouldn't Superman fighting off Doomsday prove that he's trying to?