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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    There was huge surge in purchases of Harley Quinn merchandise after Suicide Squad and a lot of reviews, even ones that didn't like the movie, praised the character.
    Reviews aren't ticket sales, and merch is nice, but a surge may or may not indicate causation. Plus, BoP suggests that she's not nearly as popular as the first movie she was in. Don't get me wrong, she's popular to a degree, I just don't think it's as much as DC and WB seem to think, to justify putting her in so very many comic books and other media, in such a leading role.
    Last edited by achilles; 06-04-2020 at 03:56 PM.

  2. #17
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    I hear a lot of people complaining about how Harley Quinn is being pushed over other characters. I even hear people saying she's only this popular because DC is pushing her at the expense of other characters. But isn't it the other way around? Doesn't a character get popular first then the marketing department (seeing that they have a hit on their hands) gets involved. I've seen way to many attempts to "push," a character go down in smoke to believe a character can be made popular just by pushing them.
    It is as you said - she's pushed because she is popular. But people who don't like her and are tired of her don't get her popularity so believe she's being pushed on them in a bid to boost her popularity. Rationally people know characters they don't like can be popular, but if they don't feel that way about a character they just don't see it.

  3. #18
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by achilles View Post
    Reviews aren't ticket sales, and merch is nice, but a surge may or may not indicate correlation. Plus, BoP suggests that she's not nearly as popular as the first movie she was in. Don't get me wrong, she's popular to a degree, I just don't think it's as much as DC and WB seem to think, to justify putting her in so very many comic books and other media, in such a leading role.
    One movie failing for arguable reasons isn't the end all be all - if her merch and comic books still sell loads, she'll continue to be pushed - so far it looks pretty damn good for her.

  4. #19
    Fantastic Member The no face guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    I hear a lot of people complaining about how Harley Quinn is being pushed over other characters. I even hear people saying she's only this popular because DC is pushing her at the expense of other characters. But isn't it the other way around? Doesn't a character get popular first then the marketing department (seeing that they have a hit on their hands) gets involved. I've seen way to many attempts to "push," a character go down in smoke to believe a character can be made popular just by pushing them.
    Harley Quinn is an immensly popular character, and has been for decades. in terms of characters, she's probably DC's last real success story, which is an incredible feat, when you think about the fact that she's a female character in an industry where the consumers are primarily males.

    For a female character outside of Wonder Woman to be able to have a comic run approaching 80 issues, is a sign of very popular character. Most comic runs last only a few years.
    ,
    Does DC push characters that don't become popular, of course, but I am baffled as to why they would pick Harley Quinn as an example. (I say all this as someone who does not care much for her)

  5. #20
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    Might I say? Sometimes it does.... Sometimes it doesn't?

    Sometimes characters are organically popular "wolverine, batman, deadpool, and honestly maybe harely too" though admittedly the harley that we
    got today is a very... different type of thing that the conception so how she became popular and what she became popular from are possibly 2 different things.

    Then you get things like "We need an "X-type" character" and we're not giving up no matter what.
    Carol Danvers likely falls into this. Marvel needed a wonderwoman and no matter how bad the sales are the character is going to get pushed till it catches. She's no wonderwoman but they're invested in her fully.

    So eventually the push gets her cartoons and a movie that fell PERFECTLY in between great movies as an add for the character. Billion dollar film, and someone the little ones can dress up as. Doesn't sell books though
    but merch is more important I'm told. So mixed results.

    Alternatively you get "We need and X-type" characters... that don't make it and get pushed for a min and then forgotten about:
    Vibe, The Inhumans/NuHumans/Simon baz and a list of others that you likely have in mind

    (and I'm hoping they don't add Jaime Reyes to that list.)

    In the end... it is POSSIBLE TO make to down popularity happen. It takes a lot of effort and resources and its a gamble but for every person who doesn't like Catwoman defeating 3 versions of the flash simultaneously theres someone cheering at that "Crowning moment of awesome".

    Harley got an adult theme filled tv show and who else can fill that funny/violent dichotomy as well? Lobo? Lobo isn't getting cosplayed by the bulk of cosplayers let that be known. Just my thoughts.
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  6. #21
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    Harley "was always popular" is a revision of history
    She was a one off cartoon character who got a positive response and the cartoon used her more
    DC did not introduce her into comic book continuity and make her canon well after btas was over and around the time justice league was airing
    They gave her a solo series which got cancelled and then she went into limbo only sporadically appearing over the next 5 - 7 years until the new 52 began

    What really increased her popularity was the arkham games
    This is actually back up by Jim Lee asserting that there was a upward trend following Harley. Her merch was selling more, Increased variant numbers featuring her, more
    Subsequently her character was no longer appearing every few months or a couple times a year

    Then she appeared in suicide squad and became a household name
    So DC is now putting her on the same level as Superman and Batman. Maybe not as well known as them but certainly in the same tier profit wise

    If DC were artificially pushing her they would be losing money. Her solos wouldn't be running for 70+ issues
    You see this with other characters
    Duke, Harper Row, Blue Beetle, Booster Gold, Cyborg etc eventually there will be a point where it is no longer feasible for DC to keep running a title since they are getting diminishing returns

  7. #22
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    The way I see it, genuine “popularity” translates more as “staying power” - from anything as a cult favorite who’s just a bit too popular to stay in limbo and exile, or as a character who creatives, even without being asked by editorial, start putting all over the books and seeing those books fly off the shelves.

    A “push” is really just a finite marketing campaign hoping to exploit something about a character to put them in a position where they can self-sustain themselves at whatever level of appreciation and sales editorial wants.

    Harley has experienced both - she achieved her own popularity long before she got a real proper push, and right now they’re mainly just trying to see how big of a profile they can help her to.

    Other characters, like Blue Bird and The Signal, have shown how a push can sometimes end up unsupported by popularity, where the hopes for expansion seems somewhat more limited than what editorial and fans would hope for.

    And ironically, other characters, like Wally, Cassandra Cain, Stephanie Brown, and the Titans, kind of show how popularity can run against the opposite of a push - editorial burial. Those are characters who had editorial trying to starve and smother the fanbase for a character... and it failed.
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  8. #23
    Fantastic Member Samm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    Harley "was always popular" is a revision of history
    She was a one off cartoon character who got a positive response and the cartoon used her more
    DC did not introduce her into comic book continuity and make her canon well after btas was over and around the time justice league was airing
    They gave her a solo series which got cancelled and then she went into limbo only sporadically appearing over the next 5 - 7 years until the new 52 began

    What really increased her popularity was the arkham games
    This is actually back up by Jim Lee asserting that there was a upward trend following Harley. Her merch was selling more, Increased variant numbers featuring her, more
    Subsequently her character was no longer appearing every few months or a couple times a year

    Then she appeared in suicide squad and became a household name
    So DC is now putting her on the same level as Superman and Batman. Maybe not as well known as them but certainly in the same tier profit wise

    If DC were artificially pushing her they would be losing money. Her solos wouldn't be running for 70+ issues
    You see this with other characters
    Duke, Harper Row, Blue Beetle, Booster Gold, Cyborg etc eventually there will be a point where it is no longer feasible for DC to keep running a title since they are getting diminishing returns
    So basically it took Harley Quinn 16-17 years to reach so sort of superstardom with the Arkham games, but another 7 (23-24 years total) to reach household status. What I’m seeing is that it takes time to reach that level. Of that list only Booster Gold and Cyborg are older that and they barley get attention. Blue Beetle definitely has the most potential and If he gets a live action movie or show he’ll probably end up A-list status. He has a cool look, fills a niche (Rare Latino hero), and has a younger fan base.

  9. #24
    Astonishing Member CPSparkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by achilles View Post
    Reviews aren't ticket sales, and merch is nice, but a surge may or may not indicate causation. Plus, BoP suggests that she's not nearly as popular as the first movie she was in. Don't get me wrong, she's popular to a degree, I just don't think it's as much as DC and WB seem to think, to justify putting her in so very many comic books and other media, in such a leading role.
    You don't think she's as popular as DC and WB seem to think? I would expect that DC and Wb know exactly how popular she is. They have the figures and data. We the fans are the ones who don't know how popular she truly is since we don't have any clue how much each character makes.

    DC and WB has no personal favs and most of the suits don't even follow these characters. They just see numbers and make decisions based on those numbers.
    If she's getting priority it's because they know exactly how popular she is.

  10. #25
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    If you live long enough, you will realize getting a push doesn't automatically promise you success. I have seen enough comic books, TV programs, movies, singers, books, politicians, etc. that had more than enough marketing to get them over the top, yet still fizzled. Some things or people just don't have that certain something and nothing can be done about it.
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPSparkles View Post
    You don't think she's as popular as DC and WB seem to think? I would expect that DC and Wb know exactly how popular she is. They have the figures and data. We the fans are the ones who don't know how popular she truly is since we don't have any clue how much each character makes.

    DC and WB has no personal favs and most of the suits don't even follow these characters. They just see numbers and make decisions based on those numbers.
    If she's getting priority it's because they know exactly how popular she is.
    Hahahaha! Wait, you meant that stuff about DC and WB?!? Well, let's just say I have less faith in them than you. And I doubt they have any real idea of how popular Harley is. There isn't much beyond sales of her comic, or ratings of her animated thing to point directly to her....and I somehow doubt they are ratings and sales monsters. They probably do well for what they are, but that maybe doesn't indicate a great outcome from betting as much as they are on her. For one thing, they should probably stop thinking that she's going to be a successful movie franchise.

  12. #27
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    In the same way that Superman has been a critical and commercial failure for the last 20 years he still gets cartoons, movies, and tv shows. Not everything involving the character is a hit
    DC has even rebooted their comic universe(how many times is it now) and ruined more than a few other franchises because of Superman being a mess.


    At the end of the day some characters never go away and that's because they are cemented. there's no risk or consequence for low sales or failure
    Whereas if you take a character like Blue Beetle and see diminishing returns that character will go into limbo. For a time Catwoman was everywhere in the 90s and then she wasn't her popularity waned

    Some characters are treated better for their failures no doubt but artificially pushing is not creating demand you need demand to sustain any interest

  13. #28
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by achilles View Post
    Hahahaha! Wait, you meant that stuff about DC and WB?!? Well, let's just say I have less faith in them than you. And I doubt they have any real idea of how popular Harley is. There isn't much beyond sales of her comic, or ratings of her animated thing to point directly to her....and I somehow doubt they are ratings and sales monsters. They probably do well for what they are, but that maybe doesn't indicate a great outcome from betting as much as they are on her. For one thing, they should probably stop thinking that she's going to be a successful movie franchise.
    Don't forget her merchandising, such as toys, clothing (shirts with her name/appearance), Halloween costumes, themed school supplies etc. Seriously, Harley makes bank. Judging her popularity on the failure of one movie alone, when there was a lot of contributing factors working against it (severely under-marketed/advertised, the R rating when she has so many young fans, comic fan blowback because the BOP didn't look like the BOP or had Oracle, general misogyny, etc.) is a little bit ludicrous. Can she hold a proper movie franchise? Who knows. Is she super duper popular? Better believe it.

  14. #29
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    Harley and Birds of Prey is doing gangbusters on the streaming markets and charts for those citing BOP box office as an indication of Harley not being bankable.

    I don't get why some begrudge Harley her success or try to claim she isn't as popular to warrant the resources DC invests in her.

    Comic sales are nothing and while I don't know how much merch Harley moves. I do know that the merch market is significantly larger than comics and Harley is a huge merch seller.

  15. #30
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    In the same way that Superman has been a critical and commercial failure for the last 20 years he still gets cartoons, movies, and tv shows. Not everything involving the character is a hit
    DC has even rebooted their comic universe(how many times is it now) and ruined more than a few other franchises because of Superman being a mess.


    At the end of the day some characters never go away and that's because they are cemented. there's no risk or consequence for low sales or failure
    Whereas if you take a character like Blue Beetle and see diminishing returns that character will go into limbo. For a time Catwoman was everywhere in the 90s and then she wasn't her popularity waned

    Some characters are treated better for their failures no doubt but artificially pushing is not creating demand you need demand to sustain any interest
    Catwoman might not be everywhere like she was in the 90s, and might not currently be Joker or Harley big, but she's still pretty popular. Honestly I think the only reason she isn't bigger is that her solo movie was a terrible movie (doesn't matter how popular a character is, a shitty film will always do damage) and her appearance in Nolan's TDKR was somewhat meh and not very Catwoman like (which I blame on Nolan, loved the actress). Give her one good part in one good movie again and she could go back up to 90's levels easy.

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