Batman vs Goku

[Jackalope89]

DBZA says that happened on Namek where they were fighting Freeza and Vegita was trying to get another one of those Sayin near-death power ups.

Well, it wasn't wrong. I'll say that.

[Nik Hasta]

I'll have to look some things up.

But when Goku got lased by a tiny pinky ring, he was in the middle of a battle with the strongest opponent (mortal division) he'd ever faced. Even if he didn't see that shot coming, he was absolutely in combat mode.

It's really more SMvFL with a side of PIS.

There have also been explosions, sucker punches, the fire exploding from the hole frieza made in the ground on Namek, etc., things where suddenly someone who should be immune against a said level of harm... isn't... for plot reasons.

It's not limited to Dragonball: Yellowjacket Hank Pym, in his first "smack my bitch up" arc with Janet, somehow briefly KO'd Thor with a kick because he got big right as he was delivering it. "Surprise!!!!!!"... doesn't matter that much. Batman knocked the air out of Wonder Woman's lungs by kicking her in the tummy. Uhhhhhhh huuuuuuuuuuh.

But those examples aren't at the level we were talking about. That's low end damage effecting them when it arguably shouldn't.

I was wondering if there were instances of them taking specifically super high end damage attacks completely off guard because, like I say, all the ones I can think of are them in a combat situation which one would assume them having whatever amounts to "basic defences on,"

There's a precedent that Saiyans at rest are much less defensively sound than Saiyans in combat, we all recall Krillin with a rock vs sleeping SSJ Goku, but the assertion was that they've taken higher end damage completely off guard with no damage.

[The Arbiter]

Goku, in Super no less, got scratched from a regular bullet when he wasnt taking it seriously. He even commented like "Gah, I've been slacking" or something.

They do seem to have variable durability, but when in a proper fight and ready, are damn near invincible.

[Captain Morgan]

Goku, in Super no less, got scratched from a regular bullet when he wasnt taking it seriously. He even commented like "Gah, I've been slacking" or something.

They do seem to have variable durability, but when in a proper fight and ready, are damn near invincible.

Right, so what does that mean for their default state in a rumble? They aren't even like Colossus, where they have a singular battleform. They are perfectly willing to switch between forms on the fly and use the least amount of power necessary. Seems to me that they would default to their unamped base forms and need to dial it up. Which leaves then vulnerable to anyone capable of blitzing that base form. And that raises the question of how fast are their base forms? Near light? Less?

[big_adventure]

Right, so what does that mean for their default state in a rumble? They aren't even like Colossus, where they have a singular battleform. They are perfectly willing to switch between forms on the fly and use the least amount of power necessary. Seems to me that they would default to their unamped base forms and need to dial it up. Which leaves then vulnerable to anyone capable of blitzing that base form. And that raises the question of how fast are their base forms? Near light? Less?

Those states don't take any real time to attain except for dramatic reasons. Vegeta and Goku were bouncing around between their forms in between superspeed hits to conserve energy in the ToP.

[Captain Morgan]

Those states don't take any real time to attain except for dramatic reasons. Vegeta and Goku were bouncing around between their forms in between superspeed hits to conserve energy in the ToP.

They have to think to do that, though. And their thought speed is going to be lower in their base form as well. Not the normal human speed of thought, but it isn't going to be as fast as their top forms and that means some characters who have nowhere near their level of fire power will be able to blitz them.

I have no idea how fast that baseline is, though. It isn't even as simple as looking at pre-super Saiyan feats, because that laser rifle and other examples shouldn't scratch baseline Namek Saga Goku.

[Jackalope89]

They have to think to do that, though. And their thought speed is going to be lower in their base form as well. Not the normal human speed of thought, but it isn't going to be as fast as their top forms and that means some characters who have nowhere near their level of fire power will be able to blitz them.

I have no idea how fast that baseline is, though. It isn't even as simple as looking at pre-super Saiyan feats, because that laser rifle and other examples shouldn't scratch baseline Namek Saga Goku.

Plot induced stupidity, really. Considering they've been throwing around planet busting blasts since the Saiyan Saga, and Goku had been shot in the head as a kid, multiple times, by Launch, without a scratch (though it stung), it doesn't make sense for him to be scratched by a bullet in Super.

[Captain Morgan]

Plot induced stupidity, really. Considering they've been throwing around planet busting blasts since the Saiyan Saga, and Goku had been shot in the head as a kid, multiple times, by Launch, without a scratch (though it stung), it doesn't make sense for him to be scratched by a bullet in Super.

I mean, being stung and being scratched are basically the same thing once you factor in differences in ballistics. And if you assume their durability is ki based and consciously raised, there's no real reason why his baseline would actually improve.

This seems really silly, but to be PIS it needs contradictory showings. Examples of their durability being automatic. Silver Surfer regularly doesn't use his speed, but he uses it and we know he has it. Green Lantern autoshields fail to stop Batman, but they stop a nuclear bomb. Dragonball is an extremely long running franchise, so there's ample opportunity for it to be demonstrated at least one and I wouldn't be shocked if it did. It just... hasn't been here in this thread.

[big_adventure]

They have to think to do that, though. And their thought speed is going to be lower in their base form as well. Not the normal human speed of thought, but it isn't going to be as fast as their top forms and that means some characters who have nowhere near their level of fire power will be able to blitz them.

I have no idea how fast that baseline is, though. It isn't even as simple as looking at pre-super Saiyan feats, because that laser rifle and other examples shouldn't scratch baseline Namek Saga Goku.

Well, as I mentioned above, in the ToP when they wanted to conserve energy, they were bouncing between forms mid-fight, like, in between punches and stuff, repeatedly. Meaning that they were capable of downgrading their form and still upgrading it fast enough to be faster then the punch they were delivering to maximize it's power. Their ability to execute transformations, therefore, is really really fast.

And as far as it being conscious and prepared: they have been stunned into unconsciousness or at least insensate and still taken several more blows from the people strong enough to stun their fully aware forms without dying or being dramatically hurt.

Vegeta, while buying time for Goku to stand back up, fought Jiren while in base form and took repeated blows from the guy and kept standing back up. He, explicitly, lacked the energy to transform or to properly fight and still didn't die or get blown to pieces or even get knocked all the way out, going so far as to, while ragdolled off the edge of the platform, transfer his energy to Goku to give Goku the strength to go MUI and own Jiren.

Dragon Ball is weird is what I'm saying. And the fact that Goku was penetrated rudely by a pinky ring laser is more of an extreme outlier (no matter what is said - Flash can't only run "almost the speed of light" either) then an indicative event. They have been taken by surprise by blows while in combat, or while completely ragdolled or stunned or whatever, many, many times and not been violated like that, which really puts the argument against "they have to be prepared to defend well."

[Cody]

Midway through a fight with assassins does not really strike me as being caught off guard. If they had opened with it, sure, but Goku was watching Freiza fight these guys for a minute there.

But he wasn't watching Frieza who went behind him with it, nor expecting him to use the hakai ball on him.

Even if he didn't see that shot coming, he was absolutely in combat mode.

He had powered right down to base beforehand.

we all recall Krillin with a rock vs sleeping SSJ Goku, but the

That was filler, not canon.

Vegeta, while buying time for Goku to stand back up, fought Jiren while in base form and took repeated blows from the guy and kept standing back up. He, explicitly, lacked the energy to transform or to properly fight and still didn't die or get blown to pieces or even get knocked all the way out, going so far as to, while ragdolled off the edge of the platform, transfer his energy to Goku to give Goku the strength to go MUI and own Jiren.

To be fair here, they weren't allowed to kill in Top. And they needed to throw people out of the ring.

[Captain Morgan]

Well, as I mentioned above, in the ToP when they wanted to conserve energy, they were bouncing between forms mid-fight, like, in between punches and stuff, repeatedly. Meaning that they were capable of downgrading their form and still upgrading it fast enough to be faster then the punch they were delivering to maximize it's power. Their ability to execute transformations, therefore, is really really fast.

And as far as it being conscious and prepared: they have been stunned into unconsciousness or at least insensate and still taken several more blows from the people strong enough to stun their fully aware forms without dying or being dramatically hurt.

Vegeta, while buying time for Goku to stand back up, fought Jiren while in base form and took repeated blows from the guy and kept standing back up. He, explicitly, lacked the energy to transform or to properly fight and still didn't die or get blown to pieces or even get knocked all the way out, going so far as to, while ragdolled off the edge of the platform, transfer his energy to Goku to give Goku the strength to go MUI and own Jiren.

Dragon Ball is weird is what I'm saying. And the fact that Goku was penetrated rudely by a pinky ring laser is more of an extreme outlier (no matter what is said - Flash can't only run "almost the speed of light" either) then an indicative event. They have been taken by surprise by blows while in combat, or while completely ragdolled or stunned or whatever, many, many times and not been violated like that, which really puts the argument against "they have to be prepared to defend well."

Getting knocked for a loop and then taking further blows is a pretty decent counterpoint. Though it is rare in Dragonball for the person with the upper hand to be going all out. The ToP stuff has been mentioned already, but DBZ was almost entirely made up of one sided fights where someone was toying with their opponent. Which adds an asterisk to those things in much the same way that Vulcan taking hits from Gladiator has an asterisk.

[SpideyCeo]

Batman just obtains 7 dragonballs to wish he was a white lantern and simply out hax goku hax.

[Captain Morgan]

Batman just obtains 7 dragonballs to wish he was a white lantern and simply out hax goku hax.

I don't think the White Lantern has enough gun, honestly. At least, none of its users figured out how to squeeze enough gun from it.

[Cyke]

I don't think the White Lantern has enough gun, honestly. At least, none of its users figured out how to squeeze enough gun from it.

Also, to be a proper White Lantern, you need mastery over all 7 rings. Wishing to become a White Lantern is one thing, but the knowledge to use it would be a separate wish. I'm assuming we're talking about Earth's Dragon Balls, not Namek's.

Plus, I suppose an argument could be made that being a White Lantern makes you more powerful than Shenron, and thus is an impossible wish for him to grant.

[Captain Morgan]

He'd be better off just wishing that a canister or Joker Toxin would be teleported into Goku's room while he's asleep.