Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 39
  1. #1
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,274

    Default Superman/Wonder Woman #11 Spoilers/Discussion

    And Doomed continues.

  2. #2
    Extraordinary Member hellacre's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    5,939

    Default

    This moves the pieces along and got several cliffhangers for some characters. Including Clark by himself and Diana by herself. And Cyborg. It hasn't really given WW any greater focus but when she is in it, she gets some good lines in and what she does is ballsy...but the issue ends so quickly to get great satisfaction...one has to wait now for the payoff. Issue seems to fly by so fast. I like the art. Not in Tony's League but solid.

    This issue seemed a typical cross over. Which wouldn't be bad but 4 chaps, Annuals, Action and now this and Diana has been limited in all of them. Seeing she is about to do something vital with Mongul and Non hope this cliffie pays off and does not fizzle like the poorly sequenced SuperDoom/Diana fight in the SM/WW Annual that lacked impact.

    I always had a soft spot for Clark and J'onn teaming up and nice to see J'onn get some page time.

    I like how Diana respond to Clark with Race you and how the world comes first even before themselves.

  3. #3
    Incredible Member Xarek's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Coordinates Unknown
    Posts
    540

    Default

    Superman Doomed is nearing its end. Let’s see what Last Sun, Chapter 2, had in store for us.
    spoilers:
    Superman and Martian Manhunter rescue Lana Lang and Steel from the wreckage of the JL satellite, but at the expense of Cyborg, who becomes assimilated. They reveal that Brainiac is slowly and patiently processing people’s brain functions from higher to lower levels resulting in their imminent death. This causes Superman concern since he realizes that the people who fell into a coma from Metropolis and Smallville are set to die first! While he ponders the consequences from the skies, Wonder Woman decides to step into the Phantom Zone, and make a deal with Mongul over Warworld’s forces. Superman, on the other hand, decides to mentally free the evil within and become Superdoom once again.
    end of spoilers
    In general terms the story is solid though very short. Soule tries to narrow his focus on more intimate situations instead of the bombastic explosions from the previous two chapters. But in doing so, some discrepancies show up that disrupt the plot, both positively and negatively.
    Story: 7.5/10
    “What we’ve got here is failure to communicate”.
    Pak and Soule needed to communicate. It seems to me that famous quote fairly surmises why we have a story that seems to deny, in some cases, and plain contradict, in others, events from Action Comics #34.
    The first example appears to us in the very first pages. Mongul and Non are freed at the end of Pak’s previous chapter, only to be summarily (and hilariously) dismissed by Soule. Three pages are wasted in what constitutes a plot turnaround. Was it necessary? Absolutely. While not an elegant solution, Soule corrects Pak’s mistake of inserting more villains in an already overcrowded crossover. While we might still see Mongul play a part in Doomed #2, the story at hand becomes neater with his absence.

    Another positive discrepancy lies in Superman’s disposition. In Action Comics #34, Clark was a gun-ho savior, with no traces of ever having the Doomsday virus, using Baka and friends to defeat the forces of Brainiac. Here, we have no such pandering nonsense. Clark is back to exhibiting the symptoms of his disease and appears once again, desperate, as he struggles with the situations in front of him.

    Some other continuity errors are not so forgivable. For one, it appears that the damage the Fortress of Solitude sustained previously was not that great as inferred before (there appears to be no damage at all!), which renders most of the events from Action #34 worthless. This is a consequence I don’t mind much since that issue for me was not very good, but some readers might object to the oversight.

    Since this is Superman Doomed (and not Superman - Brainiac’s Revenge) it seemed logical to have Superdoom back into the fold. While Doomsday’s reintroduction seems jarring at first (since Pak forgot about him in the last two chapters), I feel it propels Superman’s character forward as he faces a mental enemy that he can’t punch into submission, and the surrendering to such an evil implies that he is willing to do the unimaginable in order to save earth and the people he loves. Interestingly, we are also offered a similar parallel with Wonder Woman, who is about to make a deal with the devil. She has a small part but she is shown to have initiative and the plot sets her up for a stronger purpose in the final chapter. Under the extremes they both face, do the ends justify the means? It is the quandary that makes me want to read Doomed #2.

    Art: 7/10
    Thony Silas tries his best to summon his inner Tony Daniel, but kind of falls short. In his reluctance to draw irises and pupils, the way he does in the Beyond books, he seems to miss a very important Superman characteristic: his eyes. Not only are his eyes object to many of his powers, they are also a metaphor of trust. They are the reason why he doesn’t simply wear a mask (as there is also a reason why Batman’s eyes are designed the way they are – they are supposed to command fear in his case). The Superman in this issue, as drawn, seemed empty and unsympathetic, with barely a facial expression other than a frown (this is especially noticeable when Cyborg decides to stay behind). The rest of the other characters fare better in quality, although Lois Lane returns inexplicably to her green persona and gravity seems to have a problem with Wonder Woman’s hair. The action scenes are clear and detailed.

    Tomeu Morey’s colors are top notch and he is indeed one of the best in the biz. Ulises Arreola does well too, seamless throughout.

    In conclusion, the story is good but too short. Some wasted pages and discrepancies take away a few points, but it is a step up from what was a lagging middle. Small character moments (Lana Lang and Steel shine again) and major decisions that carry unknown consequences are the outcomes of the issue, and delve us further towards the end of Doomed.
    Last edited by Xarek; 08-13-2014 at 02:16 PM.
    Searching for Samus Aran. Still.

  4. #4
    Astonishing Member misslane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    2,701

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Xarek View Post
    It seems to me that famous quote fairly surmises why we have a story that seems to deny, in some cases, and plain contradict, in others, events from Action Comics #34.
    From what I read, Pak set up a cliffhanger, Soule followed through on it. I mean, isn't the gist that Mongul and Non were poised to invade Earth (Action #34), but then saw how the situation there was so dangerous and chaotic that they decided it wasn't a good time (Superman/Wonder Woman #11)?


    How can one tell from these plot beats that Soule was fixing anything of Pak's he viewed as a mistake? Pak wrote a cliffhanger for dramatic effect and Soule proceeded to use the characters to fulfill the next stage of what was presumably the overall plan he, Pak, and Lobdell worked on together.

    Interestingly, we are also offered a similar parallel with Wonder Woman, who is about to make a deal with the devil. She has a small part but she is shown to have initiative and the plot sets her up for a stronger purpose in the final chapter. Under the extremes they both face, do the ends justify the means? It is the quandary that makes me want to read Doomed #2.
    I'm confused. If Wonder Woman's "deal with the devil" sets up something important for Diana's character, and could play a role in the resolution of the plot, how exactly can Pak's insertion of these characters be considered a mistake? This is regarding your previous statement: "While not an elegant solution, Soule corrects Pak’s mistake of inserting more villains in an already overcrowded crossover. While we might still see Mongul play a part in Doomed #2, the story at hand becomes neater with his absence." I don't deny that things are getting very crowded and convoluted, but clearly that's a result of the event/crossover itself and not Pak alone, and clearly these characters are serving a function -- part of which may, to use your words, set up a "stronger purpose" for Wonder Woman later.

    Given the collaborative nature of this crossover, I find it difficult to lay all of the blame (credit?) on Pak for introducing Mongul, etc. For all we know, he was doing his part of executing the overarching plan by providing the already agreed upon set up that his fellow writers were going to pay off. After all, they only showed up as a cliffhanger in Action and previous issues of Pak's (Batman/Superman Annual) and Soule's (conclusion of the Zod/Faora arc) both incorporated Mongul. I'm not good with sports by any means, but let me try this analogy. Before a play, teammates will discuss their strategy and agree on who will do what. If the play is then executed with one person with the ball passing it to another, why would you blame the person who had the ball first for its existence/presence, or for forcing the person who caught it to do something with it, believing that the person who caught the ball and ran with it couldn't possibly have had some role (if not a bigger one than himself) in planning that strategy themselves?

    As for my own criticisms? I have no idea why Lois is green again or why Soule refuses to write a Lois/Diana interaction that doesn't involve Lois talking to Diana about her romantic relationship with Superman. Given that it was Lois' only role/line in this issue, it's even more disappointing.
    Last edited by misslane; 08-13-2014 at 02:49 PM.

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    4,634

    Default

    The past few issues of Doomed have been slow in the beginning, and then picking up at the end, repeat. Debating if I want to pick up the Supergirl issue.

  6. #6
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    10,105

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Xarek View Post
    plain contradict, in others, events from Action Comics #34.
    The first example appears to us in the very first pages. Mongul and Non are freed at the end of Pak’s previous chapter, only to be summarily (and hilariously) dismissed by Soule. Three pages are wasted in what constitutes a plot turnaround. Was it necessary? Absolutely. While not an elegant solution, Soule corrects Pak’s mistake of inserting more villains in an already overcrowded crossover. While we might still see Mongul play a part in Doomed #2, the story at hand becomes neater with his absence.
    I don't understand this. Pak set up Mongul an Non as a redherring then Soule executed it through. That seemed quite obvious. How was it a mistake on Pak's part? Are you mad that he made it seem like there would be more foes to fight? Because that was the point of the misdirect in this ongoing story.

    Another positive discrepancy lies in Superman’s disposition. In Action Comics #34, Clark was a gun-ho savior, with no traces of ever having the Doomsday virus, using Baka and friends to defeat the forces of Brainiac. Here, we have no such pandering nonsense. Clark is back to exhibiting the symptoms of his disease and appears once again, desperate, as he struggles with the situations in front of him.
    See I'm the opposite. This virus is based on his emotional and confidence levels. I saw Pak's Superman in 34 as the character putting all his doubt and fear over Doomsday to the wayside and being who he needed to be to everyone. The running theme for that issue was that Superman mans up and does the job with no introspective doubts when the job needs to be done. Taking out Doomsday was showing us that Superman saw that the world needed him to be at his best and he wasn't going to let us down.

    Now that the adrenalin has gone down a more introspective Superman is around again (funny how that works seeing as Pak's Superman was always the man of action and Soule is a bit of a navel gazer) and now the symptoms flare again.

    Pak's issue was more of a "push past the pain, I've got much bigger things to worry about" sort of issue and Superman.


    Since this is Superman Doomed (and not Superman - Brainiac’s Revenge) it seemed logical to have Superdoom back into the fold. While Doomsday’s reintroduction seems jarring at first (since Pak forgot about him in the last two chapters), I feel it propels Superman’s character forward as he faces a mental enemy that he can’t punch into submission, and the surrendering to such an evil implies that he is willing to do the unimaginable in order to save earth and the people he loves. Interestingly, we are also offered a similar parallel with Wonder Woman, who is about to make a deal with the devil. She has a small part but she is shown to have initiative and the plot sets her up for a stronger purpose in the final chapter. Under the extremes they both face, do the ends justify the means? It is the quandary that makes me want to read Doomed #2.
    This "beast inside" stuff has always come off as forced and unnecessary when done with Superman IMO. Parts of this arc have done it rather well I'd say by turning it on it's head. This is all thanks to the set up in Action comics where Superman meets Baka for the first time and everyone sees a monster. If that would have been played with more I'd have like it more. But regardless it was done well. It's the idea of Superman taking a force that could be potentially dangerous and pointing it in the direction of good use. Pak has set up that this is what Superman is in many ways with his flashbacks, Tower, and Baka.

  7. #7
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    10,105

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    From what I read, Pak set up a cliffhanger, Soule followed through on it. I mean, isn't the gist that Mongul and Non were poised to invade Earth (Action #34), but then saw how the situation there was so dangerous and chaotic that they decided it wasn't a good time (Superman/Wonder Woman #11)?

    How can one tell from these plot beats that Soule was fixing anything of Pak's he viewed as a mistake? Pak wrote a cliffhanger for dramatic effect and Soule proceeded to use the characters to fulfill the next stage of what was presumably the overall plan he, Pak, and Lobdell worked on together.
    Yeah I agree. That was what I saw too.


    I'm confused. If Wonder Woman's "deal with the devil" sets up something important for Diana's character, and could play a role in the resolution of the plot, how exactly can Pak's insertion of these characters be considered a mistake? This is regarding your previous statement: "While not an elegant solution, Soule corrects Pak’s mistake of inserting more villains in an already overcrowded crossover. While we might still see Mongul play a part in Doomed #2, the story at hand becomes neater with his absence." I don't deny that things are getting very crowded and convoluted, but clearly that's a result of the event/crossover itself and not Pak alone, and clearly these characters are serving a function -- part of which may, to use your words, set up a "stronger purpose" for Wonder Woman later.

    Given the collaborative nature of this crossover, I find it difficult to lay all of the blame (credit?) on Pak for introducing Mongul, etc. For all we know, he was doing his part of executing the overarching plan by providing the already agreed upon set up that his fellow writers were going to pay off. After all, they only showed up as a cliffhanger in Action and previous issues of Pak's (Batman/Superman Annual) and Soule's (conclusion of the Zod/Faora arc) both incorporated Mongul. I'm not good with sports by any means, but let me try this analogy. Before a play, teammates will discuss their strategy and agree on who will do what. If the play is then executed with one person with the ball passing it to another, why would you blame the person who had the ball first for its existence/presence, or for forcing the person who caught it to do something with it, believing that the person who caught the ball and ran with it couldn't possibly have had some role (if not a bigger one than himself) in planning that strategy themselves?

    As for my own criticisms? I have no idea why Lois is green again or why Soule refuses to write a Lois/Diana interaction that doesn't involve Lois talking to Diana about her romantic relationship with Superman. Given that it was Lois' only role/line in this issue, it's even more disappointing.
    I also agree with all of this.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 08-13-2014 at 03:35 PM.

  8. #8
    Incredible Member Xarek's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Coordinates Unknown
    Posts
    540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    From what I read, Pak set up a cliffhanger, Soule followed through on it. I mean, isn't the gist that Mongul and Non were poised to invade Earth (Action #34), but then saw how the situation there was so dangerous and chaotic that they decided it wasn't a good time (Superman/Wonder Woman #11)?
    How can one tell from these plot beats that Soule was fixing anything of Pak's he viewed as a mistake? Pak wrote a cliffhanger for dramatic effect and Soule proceeded to use the characters to fulfill the next stage of what was presumably the overall plan he, Pak, and Lobdell worked on together.
    This is also a response to Superlad93. When I said "...corrects Pak's mistake...", I wasn't talking about the cliffhanger in AC #34 in itself. A good cliffhanger is expected to offer something of a payoff. That's what a cliffhanger in writing is for. Last week I didn't think much of it. I shrugged and thought there were already too many going ons on the pages already. But I still expected a payoff. So, this week, Soule decides to brush these villains aside.Mongul and Non fulfill nothing. Why did I say it was Pak's mistake and not Soule's? Well... Pak introduced a cliffhanger that is utterly pointless. See for yourself: Get both issues. Finish AC #34 without reading the last page, and then start SM/WW #11 with Superman and MM in space (1 page + a spread later). You will not miss a single beat. Absolutely nothing is lost. I would call it filler... but it isn't really. Soule basically undid what Pak introduced. Mongul and Non escape. Swiftly say, "ummm... nope". Turn around and back into the phantom zone!! And that is why I mention communication.


    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    I'm confused. If Wonder Woman's "deal with the devil" sets up something important for Diana's character, and could play a role in the resolution of the plot, how exactly can Pak's insertion of these characters be considered a mistake? This is regarding your previous statement: "While not an elegant solution, Soule corrects Pak’s mistake of inserting more villains in an already overcrowded crossover. While we might still see Mongul play a part in Doomed #2, the story at hand becomes neater with his absence." I don't deny that things are getting very crowded and convoluted, but clearly that's a result of the event/crossover itself and not Pak alone, and clearly these characters are serving a function -- part of which may, to use your words, set up a "stronger purpose" for Wonder Woman later.
    Read my response above. Forget for a moment that Mongul and Non escaped at all. Wonder Woman still gets her setup.

    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    Given the collaborative nature of this crossover, I find it difficult to lay all of the blame (credit?) on Pak for introducing Mongul, etc. For all we know, he was doing his part of executing the overarching plan by providing the already agreed upon set up that his fellow writers were going to pay off. After all, they only showed up as a cliffhanger in Action and previous issues of Pak's (Batman/Superman Annual) and Soule's (conclusion of the Zod/Faora arc) both incorporated Mongul. I'm not good with sports by any means, but let me try this analogy. Before a play, teammates will discuss their strategy and agree on who will do what. If the play is then executed with one person with the ball passing it to another, why would you blame the person who had the ball first for its existence/presence, or for forcing the person who caught it to do something with it, believing that the person who caught the ball and ran with it couldn't possibly have had some role (if not a bigger one than himself) in planning that strategy themselves?
    Again, I never said that Mongul as a plot device is a mistake. Completely unnecessary as a cliffhanger for AC #34. That's it. And unfortunately, in the real world, collaborative writing isn't as pristine. This is specially true when various editors are also involved. Changes are not up to Pak or Soule, in the end.

    Quote Originally Posted by misslane View Post
    As for my own criticisms? I have no idea why Lois is green again or why Soule refuses to write a Lois/Diana interaction that doesn't involve Lois talking to Diana about her romantic relationship with Superman. Given that it was Lois' only role/line in this issue, it's even more disappointing.
    You do realize Lois was a big part of the last two Action issues? But fair enough. That scene was inserted, so to speak, and only served as exposition in order to convey to the reader where SM and WW stood in regards to what was happening around them. What WW says gains more importance because of the events that happen at the end. In theory, any character could have said LL's lines, but since she is "supposedly" Clark's friend, I guess she seemed the ideal choice to be a part of the small exchange.


    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    See I'm the opposite. This virus is based on his emotional and confidence levels. I saw Pak's Superman in 34 as the character putting all his doubt and fear over Doomsday to the wayside and being who he needed to be to everyone. The running theme for that issue was that Superman mans up and does the job with no introspective doubts when the job needs to be done. Taking out Doomsday was showing us that Superman saw that the world needed him to be at his best and he wasn't going to let us down.

    Now that the adrenalin has gone down a more introspective Superman is around again (funny how that works seeing as Pak's Superman was always the man of action and Soule is a bit of a navel gazer) and now the symptoms flare again.
    Umm... neat but too neat. I have no problem with confident Superman at all. But when it all happened, it seemed too abrupt. And heavy handed. "Let's defeat the Doomsday virus with friendship and rainbows..." .Imho, it doesn't work. Here, SUperman is also taking charge. But at the same time he is clearly not 100% ok. Which was my gripe from before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Pak's issue was more of a "push past the pain, I've got much bigger things to worry about" sort of issue and Superman.
    This "beast inside" stuff has always come off as forced and unnecessary when done with Superman IMO. Parts of this arc have done it rather well I'd say by turning it on it's head. This is all thanks to the set up in Action comics where Superman meets Baka for the first time and everyone sees a monster. If that would have been played with more I'd have like it more. But regardless it was done well. It's the idea of Superman taking a force that could be potentially dangerous and pointing it in the direction of good use. Pak has set up that this is what Superman is in many ways with his flashbacks, Tower, and Baka.
    Well the beast inside IS what the event is all about! It is Superman Doomed after all! This is not a retread of Death of Superman.
    And those ideas that you mention are all well and good in proper context. But I felt that Pak overindulged himself a little with AC #34. I had no qualms in previous AC issues.
    Searching for Samus Aran. Still.

  9. #9
    Fantastic Member butterfingers158's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    307

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    The past few issues of Doomed have been slow in the beginning, and then picking up at the end, repeat. Debating if I want to pick up the Supergirl issue.
    Only 2 issues left in Doomed, if you're stuck with it this far might as well finish

  10. #10
    tltid
    Guest

    Default

    So, the Death Star is in the Phantom Zone

  11. #11
    Astonishing Member misslane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    2,701

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Xarek View Post
    This is also a response to Superlad93. When I said "...corrects Pak's mistake...", I wasn't talking about the cliffhanger in AC #34 in itself. A good cliffhanger is expected to offer something of a payoff. That's what a cliffhanger in writing is for. Last week I didn't think much of it. I shrugged and thought there were already too many going ons on the pages already. But I still expected a payoff. So, this week, Soule decides to brush these villains aside.Mongul and Non fulfill nothing. Why did I say it was Pak's mistake and not Soule's? Well... Pak introduced a cliffhanger that is utterly pointless. See for yourself: Get both issues. Finish AC #34 without reading the last page, and then start SM/WW #11 with Superman and MM in space (1 page + a spread later). You will not miss a single beat. Absolutely nothing is lost. I would call it filler... but it isn't really. Soule basically undid what Pak introduced. Mongul and Non escape. Swiftly say, "ummm... nope". Turn around and back into the phantom zone!! And that is why I mention communication.
    Since this whole event is a collaborative effort, it's hard for me to believe that it totally Pak's idea to introduce Mongul and Non as a cliffhanger. For all we know, Pak, Soule, and Lobell all decided together that Mongul, Non, and Warworld were going to factor into how Brainiac is defeated and how this whole catastrophe gets resolved. Since they were in the Phantom Zone as a result of the events of the Batman/Superman Annual, then naturally their entrance into the story was going to have to involve some sort of disruption with the Zone. Pak's recent entry into this event showed the heroes working together to use the Phantom Zone as a solution to the Brainiac problem. Obviously it didn't work, but it was worth a try. If you're tired of the almost one step forward and two steps back approach to the storytelling across the board, I blame the extended nature of this event and all three collaborators plus their editor. I don't see why Pak deserves to be singled out.

    I also disagree that Soule undid anything that Pak introduced. Pak only introduced that Mongul and Non were poised to enter Earth with conquest on their minds. He didn't set up that they were aware of everything going on and still up for it. I believe it's not filler because seeing how Mongul and Non reacted to the state of things set up why they might be more in the mood to negotiate with Wonder Woman and possibly even assist personally in the efforts against Brainiac. I also can't see anything wrong with a writer wanting to end an entry into an interconnected series of books in an event with a cliffhanger. Television shows do that type of thing all the time. It feels like massively nitpicking something and singling out Pak unfairly for criticism.

    You do realize Lois was a big part of the last two Action issues? But fair enough.
    Lois being a big part of the past Action issues has nothing to do with my problem. I'd have no problem with her having one line in this if it was about something strategy related. I even would have been fine if she hadn't said anything at all. I'd be disappointed, because it's not like Lois has to be rationed. Lana's been a consistent presence in these issues, as have Batman and Wonder Woman. Lois just got a nice spotlight in previous ones, but on the whole it's not like she (as Lois) has been center stage. I think it's a perfectly reasonable expectation that Soule be able to write Lois doing something other than saying one or two sentences about Wonder Woman's love life with Superman.

    That scene was inserted, so to speak, and only served as exposition in order to convey to the reader where SM and WW stood in regards to what was happening around them. What WW says gains more importance because of the events that happen at the end. In theory, any character could have said LL's lines, but since she is "supposedly" Clark's friend, I guess she seemed the ideal choice to be a part of the small exchange.
    It was dumb. In fact, since Superman and Wonder Woman chat so soon afterward, what was communicated in the Lois/Diana conversation could have easily been shifted into that one leaving Lois and Diana, Lois and Lana, or Lois and anyone else to briefly chat about something not boyfriend related. I'd have liked a nice Lana/Lois moment, personally, since they've not properly met yet.

    Umm... neat but too neat. I have no problem with confident Superman at all. But when it all happened, it seemed too abrupt. And heavy handed. "Let's defeat the Doomsday virus with friendship and rainbows..." .Imho, it doesn't work. Here, SUperman is also taking charge. But at the same time he is clearly not 100% ok. Which was my gripe from before.
    Wow, you are vastly misrepresenting what happened. Doomsday was subdued in Superman due to a combination of several things. First, Martian Manhunter put a psychic wall in Superman's brain to keep Doomsday at bay. That alone didn't work. Then Baka was brought in, and it helped, but it also didn't work for very long. The reason Superman was struggling to respond to these attempts at a cure was because of the kryptonite in the atmosphere. Through the hard work and ingenuity of Batman, Luthor, Harrow, Veritas, etc., the kryptonite was removed. In this state, Superman has much better odds against the Doomsday beast that is still inside him. Throughout this recent issue from Soule, Superman is in exactly the same amount of control as Pak had set him up to be. The only reason Doomsday emerges again is because Superman elects to unleash him as a last ditch effort to defeat Brainiac who is threatening to first kill the people of Smallville and Metropolis and then the rest of the world.
    Last edited by misslane; 08-13-2014 at 06:37 PM.

  12. #12

    Default

    Thought this was a fairly decent issue. It moved the Doomed story forward, sending both Superman and Wonder Woman to the front lines of two separate yet major battles. They didn't have a lot of interactions or many romantic moments, but that's okay because I don't think that would have fit with the context story anyways. What I like about this issue is that it shows Superman and Wonder Woman being able to fight major battles on their own. One of the common criticisms I've heard about this pairing is that it makes them too dependent on one another, giving the impression that they can't stand on their own two feet. Well this shows that they can fight on their own without it creating any melodrama. I think this whole Doomed arc has shown that they can be part of the same struggle, but still function separately. And I think that's healthy for any relationship.
    Join me on the official website for X-men Supreme, home of Marvel Universe 1015. Want a fresh take on X-men? Click below to enter the official home of Marvel at it's most Supreme!


    Or if you want, check out my YouTube channel, Jack's World.

  13. #13
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    1,556

    Default

    Bumping this because I think we I can't discuss this on the SM/WW appreciation thread anymore. I'll also get to what happens in this issue.

    Kind of like expanding on what I and Superlad agree is the characterization of Supes/Clark by Soule. Soule does an amazing Diana, but IMO, repeat, *In My Oppinion*, his Supes is very bad. The doomed event only made things worse.

    The thing is, there's too much of quiet, insecure, humorless Clark. There's also too little smiles, happiness, banter, between Clark and Diana.

    In #2, Clark was insecure about Doomsday, Diana gave him a pep talk. Cool. Then the fight with Apollo, I don't see much wrong with, but I can see the problem for Wondy fans, even after Clark told Diana he knew she could defend herself.
    In #3, Clark was insecure because he was overcharged, and went to hide on the moon. Also, it seemed he had no problem with Diana seeing him in that state at the end of #2.
    At the end of #3, Clark starts to get insecure because the world knows about their relationship.
    In #4, Clark continues being insecure to the point that it irritated Diana, who had given him her time. Clark also has no full knowledge of the FOS tech and Zod plays him for a fool.
    In #5, finally, Clark called Diana and deferred to her lead in battle. Also, maybe a sign that he accepted her offer and she has been teaching him? ('Where do you need me?'.)
    In #6, Clark is insecure, because he got his ass kicked and/or because he worries that their relationship can affect their mission.
    In #7, Clark is starting to feel insecure because Diana hasn't said 'I love you' back.

    There's too little *good* character moments for Clark in the first arc.

    Superman is hated. I think the character is the most hated fictional hero ever. Tumblr, facebook, blogs, etc. The most 'popular' Superman tags are of him getting his ass kicked by Batman or Wonder Woman. He is the horrible, awful, dreadful, chauvinisc/misogynistc monster of the comic book industry.

    And this book didn't make things any better for him. I understand that the relationship can't be magically wonderful, that the characters have to grow up and mature, but the lack of evolution for Clark went too far. Superman has had 30 years of being relatable. The character needs a lot of *awesome* character moments. The Batman fans get them. The Wondy fans get them. Can we Supes fans get them too?

    Soule said that in the last issue we will see something refering to the first issue. I hope it's about Diana teaching Clark how to fight.

    But even if it shows that she has been training him, it should have been organicaly shown in an earlier issue. Not only it would have given a better character for Clark, it would certainly have pleased Wondy fans. It's not only that it show he respects Diana, is secure about needing to learn from her, but also shows that he is willing to improve and evolve as a person.

    Clark shoud have thanked Diana when she saved him from Zod and Faora. Nope, he was insecure again. I understand when a writer doesn't want to give obvious story beats, but damn, Clark needed some better char. moments.

    At the end of the first arc, he HAD to have told Diana how awesome she has been for him. A reverse of the pep talk she gave him about doomsday. Not that she would have some crisis of confidence or something like this. Just a romantic, quiet moment. And I know that Wonder Woman needs validation from no man. But it shouldn't have stopped Clark from telling her how awesome, amazing, gorgeous, decisive, important she had been for him all the months they had been dating.

    Instead we got insecure, insecure and more insecure. Not even a scene where Clark is speechless of how awesome Diana is. More insecure.

    And then came doomed and we got a crooked, corrupted, dark Clark. Insecure about Batman. Insecure about the *editorial mandate*. Insecure about the 'I love you'. He was holding the lasso the whole time.

    And in this last issue we get: "You've saved me so many times. Let me return the favor. Let me save them, let me save you."

    What was he expecting? That Diana sit pretty and let him save her? 12 issues, almost 1 year, and Soule didn't allow Clark to evolve on tiny little bit. He learned nothing about Diana. And "You've saved me so many times. Let me return the favor" is no substitute for Clark really thanking Diana in a quiet moment. It makes him seem again an insecure little twerp.

    And there's too little romance. Even people who are not fans of this pairing have been asking for this.

    When Jack Herbert was announced, I took a look at his art:

    http://jacksonherbert.deviantart.com...is-2-254121386

    And compared it to SM/WW #9. Ok, maybe Diana wouldn't kiss 'Superdoom'. But not even a touch.

    Maybe I'm a sap, corny. But I don't think the first arc was a 'honeymoon'. They were way too afraid and hesitant. It was cool that they were quiet, 'delicate' in the first 3, 4 issues. But it didn't evolve. With time, it seemed they were talking business. Instead of talking about themselves it seemed they were closing a business deal. There's way too little romance, banter, happiness. No kissing, no touching, no tenderness. And then came 'doomed'.

    The end result for me is 12 issues of an awesome Diana, a pathetic Clark and almost no romance.

  14. #14
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    1,025

    Default

    just wait till issue 12 duck, it's just what the doctor ordered as far as the love department
    Last edited by kidstandout; 09-12-2014 at 04:21 PM.

  15. #15
    Fantastic Member UltraWoman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Cape Girardeau
    Posts
    310

    Default

    Issue 312? I doubt it'd go that far (and no, I'm not saying this as a fan of a different pairing). His points above are pretty much what I didn't enjoy about this pairing (so far). There hasn't been much beyond the initial (strictly physical) attraction to carry them forward (in this book. I haven't read Justice League and other than those hints in Superman haven't seen much else either.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •