Superman/Wonder Woman #11 Spoilers/Discussion

[BlackFeath]

Issue 312? I doubt it'd go that far (and no, I'm not saying this as a fan of a different pairing). His points above are pretty much what I didn't enjoy about this pairing (so far). There hasn't been much beyond the initial (strictly physical) attraction to carry them forward (in this book. I haven't read Justice League and other than those hints in Superman haven't seen much else either.

I think kidstandout meant issue 12. According to what Soule said on twitter there will be plenty of romance in there. We will see.

[DochaDocha]

Yeah, looks like kidstandout forgot to press the SHIFT key.

I have to agree with several of those points. Superman's been scaled back from the alpha hero that made him awesome for decades, and I haven't always liked that.

However...

There's also been a lot of concerns from fans wanting to make sure this book wasn't all-Superman, all-the-time, with WW only kind of being helpful or kind of standing tall in the moment, so I can sort of see why Superman is so subdued at times. And I don't mean concerns from fans who hated all 20+ DC Comics issues that make reference to the two together, and will hate every issue to come, too.

[BlackFeath]

Yeah, looks like kidstandout forgot to press the SHIFT key.

I have to agree with several of those points. Superman's been scaled back from the alpha hero that made him awesome for decades, and I haven't always liked that.

However...

There's also been a lot of concerns from fans wanting to make sure this book wasn't all-Superman, all-the-time, with WW only kind of being helpful or kind of standing tall in the moment, so I can sort of see why Superman is so subdued at times. And I don't mean concerns from fans who hated all 20+ DC Comics issues that make reference to the two together, and will hate every issue to come, too.

True is there shouldn't be any need to subdue a character for the other... Hope this will change...

Anyway while some Superman's fans don't like how Superman was portrayed, there are also Wonder Woman's fans who didn't like how she was portrayed as well (the strange behaviour in issue 10 for example), and also how she was sidelined especially in issues of Doomed like the annual, or how she was portrayed like the only one who for the most part think about their relationship, even if at the end it's Clark who says 'I love you', or how she hasn't got any arc centered on her yet.

I'd say they have both had their good and their bad moments, only Superman's fans see more the bad moments of Superman, and Wonder Woman's fans see the Wonder Woman's ones.

Hope we will see good moments for the both of them together.

[confusiongrows]

And there's too little romance. Even people who are not fans of this pairing have been asking for this....

...The end result for me is 12 issues of an awesome Diana, a pathetic Clark and almost no romance.

I actually agree with most of what dumbduck said but I only quoted these bits because they sum up nicely why this book doesn't work. The central premise of the book is supposed to be that it's about their adventures together and their romance. But the book has no romance - there's no heat, no chemistry and no fun in their relationship really. I like Soule but he's totally dropped the ball on this with his take on these characters and this coupling. He's just written another generic action-focused Superman book that happens to have Wonder Woman in it, which leaves me wondering what the point was. There's more chemistry between Clark and Bruce in Pak's team-up book than there is here. There needed to be more of this:

[kidstandout]

i meant 12 guys, cursed shift button lol

[kidstandout]

I actually agree with most of what dumbduck said but I only quoted these bits because they sum up nicely why this book doesn't work. The central premise of the book is supposed to be that it's about their adventures together and their romance. But the book has no romance - there's no heat, no chemistry and no fun in their relationship really. I like Soule but he's totally dropped the ball on this with his take on these characters and this coupling. He's just written another generic action-focused Superman book that happens to have Wonder Woman in it, which leaves me wondering what the point was. There's more chemistry between Clark and Bruce in Pak's team-up book than there is here. There needed to be more of this:

i wouldn't say it was completly devoid of it but yea it could use more softer moments(which in turn will cause the detractors to claim it's too happy-go-lucky lol)

[UltraWoman]

i wouldn't say it was completly devoid of it but yea it could use more softer moments(which in turn will cause the detractors to claim it's too happy-go-lucky lol)

This detractor wouldn't. It's those sorts of moments that build relationships. I haven't seen anything to suggest them hanging out on a regular basis (the dance scene was the only one I could think of the whole times).

[kidstandout]

This detractor wouldn't. It's those sorts of moments that build relationships. I haven't seen anything to suggest them hanging out on a regular basis (the dance scene was the only one I could think of the whole times).

then i'll hold you to that come next issue:P

[Superlad93]

I actually agree with most of what dumbduck said but I only quoted these bits because they sum up nicely why this book doesn't work. The central premise of the book is supposed to be that it's about their adventures together and their romance. But the book has no romance - there's no heat, no chemistry and no fun in their relationship really. I like Soule but he's totally dropped the ball on this with his take on these characters and this coupling. He's just written another generic action-focused Superman book that happens to have Wonder Woman in it, which leaves me wondering what the point was. There's more chemistry between Clark and Bruce in Pak's team-up book than there is here. There needed to be more of this:

AGREED!!!! I stand firmly by my assessment that Pak's book is superior in delivering a FANTASTIC chemistry WHILE putting the characters in larger than life situations that befits them. His only sin (and it's a big one as far as this book goes) is that he has stuck this book in crossover hell. Just using it as extra pages sometime (literally during the Doomed event actually).

But MAN when he gets his own story going like in the first arc or this current one it's one of the most flat out fun books out on the shelves, no question. You always have this "aw man what're these two gonna get into today" feel when you read one of the better arcs (and parts of the others). Fun and crazy concepts that play with the characters and their myths. The Superman robo suit comes to mind.

I wanna feel like that in every issue of Superman and Wonder Woman. That "what're they gonna get into this time" feel. Plus they get to kiss and stuff too so that's cool. Hopefully before they split DC decides to do one big blow out arc where it's just big fun, big emotion, and big adventure lead by our young heroes. Hopefully.

[Superlad93]

Bumping this because I think we I can't discuss this on the SM/WW appreciation thread anymore. I'll also get to what happens in this issue.

Kind of like expanding on what I and Superlad agree is the characterization of Supes/Clark by Soule. Soule does an amazing Diana, but IMO, repeat, *In My Oppinion*, his Supes is very bad. The doomed event only made things worse.

The thing is, there's too much of quiet, insecure, humorless Clark. There's also too little smiles, happiness, banter, between Clark and Diana.

The part in bold is how I'd describe the book as a whole. I'm all for liking the book as a whole and more power to the people who are cool with how things are. You've got your book the way you enjoy it. But when I think of the idea that I was presented that runs behind the book, the idea of a young Superman and Wonder Woman dating, I'm baffled with how SLOW and devoid of levity and grand levels of pure fun the book is. I often wondered (when I actively picked it up) if I was meant to be reading a book about Superman and Wonder Woman or if it was two leads in a melodramatic romance novel.

Some people are very much into how Soule slows things down (to a crawl IMO) and creates (he literally makes conflicts up that would be there most of the time ie anything that comes out of Superman's freakin mouth!) conflicts for them to deal with within themselves an on another. But call me crazy or whatever you want but I never think of angst when I think of the idea of these two dating. It's Mr. and Mrs. super-awesome, Uncle Sam dating the Statue of Liberty, Mr. and Mrs. Perfect. I feel like it's almost foolish not to play on that idea that we all had of them growing up. I've said this before but when I was 6 I just assumed before I knew too much about these two characters respective myths that they went out. I mean how could I not? It fit together like a perfect puzzle in my mind. Later I obviously learned more and knew they were not together. But that shallow, cliche, obvious idea still stays with me as something that would be cool to see for a time.

So what better way than to have them date young?! I over joyed and the genius of this idea.......then they actually did it. And it's so weighted down with this overbearing drama and slowness that's not very becoming of the idea of two young super people dating.

I mean am I crazy or shouldn't the book exude the same youth and energy as the two young heroes dating? I mean that just makes more sense to me than the slow and overly dramatic romance novel approach that we have (still very well written though). But then even more so than that it's the fact that the book is about a young SUPERMAN and WONDER WOMAN!! You should be hard pressed NOT to find high thinking action and adventure behind each and every cover.

Both heroes at the top of their game maybe being a little immature at time with banter and showing off, because why the hell not? I mean you've got two young alpha heroes dating. There's gonna be a little bit of friendly competition in some adventures. Maybe ending with an "I beat you" kiss or a "you won" kiss from either party just to keep the romance and fun going hand in hand. If they're gonna have a "quite moment" set it somewhere interesting while talking about something as fantastic as they are. It's just what I picture if they dated young you know?



With all that said these last issues of the book by Soule have really just highlighted my problems with this whole execution of what I think is a really fun and rather simple concept. The doom event has just put the most bitter taste in my mouth for this book simply because I KNOW we're gonna be "dealing with the issues" left from all this nonsense. Soule's big promise of a "tender" moment between the two doesn't do anything for me either because given his direction it won't be on the "level" that I think it should be, that I think befits them. It's more than likely gonna be them talking in bed or something. I'm just not interested in that sort of thing for them a lot of the time (it's cool sometimes don't get me wrong).

Add that along with the lily livered Clark that I catch ever time I read this book and nah man you can keep that.

[Sacred Knight]

Pak's Action is definitely superior. BM/SM has kinda dropped a few notches from the first arc. I mean, since then its kinda become a recycling of either Earth-2 stories, or Superman and Batman manipulated by a demon (though it was cool to see Satanus reintroduced). The Annual, which in retrospect could be read now as a set up for both SM/WW and Doomed, was the last time I was really impressed.

[dumbduck]

Yeah, looks like kidstandout forgot to press the SHIFT key.

I have to agree with several of those points. Superman's been scaled back from the alpha hero that made him awesome for decades, and I haven't always liked that.

However...

There's also been a lot of concerns from fans wanting to make sure this book wasn't all-Superman, all-the-time, with WW only kind of being helpful or kind of standing tall in the moment, so I can sort of see why Superman is so subdued at times. And I don't mean concerns from fans who hated all 20+ DC Comics issues that make reference to the two together, and will hate every issue to come, too.

True is there shouldn't be any need to subdue a character for the other... Hope this will change...

Anyway while some Superman's fans don't like how Superman was portrayed, there are also Wonder Woman's fans who didn't like how she was portrayed as well (the strange behaviour in issue 10 for example), and also how she was sidelined especially in issues of Doomed like the annual, or how she was portrayed like the only one who for the most part think about their relationship, even if at the end it's Clark who says 'I love you', or how she hasn't got any arc centered on her yet.

I'd say they have both had their good and their bad moments, only Superman's fans see more the bad moments of Superman, and Wonder Woman's fans see the Wonder Woman's ones.

Hope we will see good moments for the both of them together.

Who are the more over-protective fans? LOL.

It seems that I was really critical of Soule. But I'm really sad he is going. The thing is that the book needed so little. Just take Pak's scenes:







Okay, I'm sorry to say, but Pak almost gave more closeness to them in those few panels than 12 issues of SM/WW. Just a few panels. One touch, one kiss, banter and humor. Just a tiny bit more tenderness in a few scenes. That would have been enough. I know that a writer is not supposed to give what the readers want, but damn, throw us a few bones.

Just have a small 2,3 panel callback of them sparring after that Zod/Faora fight. Diana berating him for the way he handled Faora. Have he being insecure but show he has been learning in that scene. That Soule brought up the offer of training but never followed through really hurt Clark's character, IMO. If there had been 'Mistress Diana' and 'Grashopper Clark' scenes I bet Wondy fans would have been pleased, LOL.

But yeah, the second arc should have been in Diana's world. Trouble is that the plans had been 'Doomed' all along. It also stung that when it began there were 3 evil Supermen(!) around. And making Supes subdued amounted to nothing if there were not many feats for Diana. Her best showing was in BM/SM #11, that should have been in one of the SM/WW issues. There's just to many 'tactical' mistakes. And yeah, #10 was real weird.

I also felt duped of a Clark and Diana vs Doomsday fight. I thought that the Tony Daniel armor with scary flail, that got turned into a statue would have been her armor when fighting Doomsday. It was cool that her battle cry scared DD, and it's obvious he wouldn't fight the 2 at the same time, but still.

Also, Angle Man was shown in #4. He could have been used. Phantom Zone, Xa-du, Harrow. Angle Man could have been a scary powerfull villain. He could have been the bridge that allowed Doomsday to shift in and out of the PZ. He could also have fought Diana while she had been dealing with Lois. Then she could have defeated him, gotten him out of Brainiac's control, since I don't think he is a nihilist kind of guy. Then he'd help with the others. Wondy villain: huge impact: Wondy fans satisfied. C'mon DC, try a little harder.

[dumbduck]

i wouldn't say it was completly devoid of it but yea it could use more softer moments(which in turn will cause the detractors to claim it's too happy-go-lucky lol)

Okay, I've been *itching and moaning again. The truth is, the first arc was good. Just 2 or 3 panels of smiles and banter and I'd been happier. It's doomed that really soured things for me.

[Superlad93]

Just have a small 2,3 panel callback of them sparring after that Zod/Faora fight. Diana berating him for the way he handled Faora. Have he being insecure but show he has been learning in that scene. That Soule brought up the offer of training but never followed through really hurt Clark's character, IMO. If there had been 'Mistress Diana' and 'Grashopper Clark' scenes I bet Wondy fans would have been pleased, LOL.

Then he'd help with the others. Wondy villain: huge impact: Wondy fans satisfied. C'mon DC, try a little harder.

As if they could satisfy Wonder Woman fans when they continue to leave Superman fans unsatisfied. That whole fight with Zod is still ridiculous when you compare Soule's Superman to literally every other Superman that's currently being written (including Lobdell at the time) Superman was shown to be a mast of his powers and a very accomplished strategic thinker even when overcome with emotion. Pak Lobdell and Snyder's Superman are far and away above Soule's in that regard. But why? To drum up some ridiculous friction.

Why did Wonder Woman have to berate Superman on his fighting? It's been shown and told that he has taken learning to fight into account over the years. He's beaten two Krytonian level threats with the use of his knowledge of fighting. The world is his dojo and time is his master.

Don't get me wrong I'm just fine with Superman accepting help from others. That's one of the big aspects of the character regardless of how powerful he is. He's always humble and never turns away a helping had. But they way that Soule wrote it was as if Superman just ran into a fight a waved his arms around till he won. What Superman is he reading? Cuz Pak's Superman is just about one of the fastest thinkers I've ever seen. He puts his foe on their back while taking the whole situation into account. He's that good because he needs to be. It's what's expected of him so he pushed that hard. One of the central themes of Pak's run. Snyder's Superman is shown to be nearly as quick thinking as Pak's and almost as careful. Add on the idea that he has taken to learning resourceful combat against powerful foes and I wonder how anyone could question him knowing how to fight. Lobdell's Superman was pretty much good at EVERYTHING. He'd have his foes down before they even knew it. He used his powers in some of the most creative was possible to the point where he'd almost have created a new power. His gift for quick thinking, power use, and strategy was rather impressive.

So I go down to Soule's Superman and wonder why Wonder Woman is talking to him as if he'd never learned how to correctly throw a punch. Then I'm even more floored when Zod absolutely dominates him with no resistance from Superman. Soule just created that conflict to give Superman something to feel insecure about and throw Wonder Woman a bone as if she needed it. It's disrespectful to both characters if you ask me. Why couldn't the training have been just a wordless scene of him learning for a panel or three? Or a throw away line of "Wonder Woman showed me that". Instead it's this whole insinuation that Superman is just a dumb rock who just hopes he hits something really hard. Couldn't be farther from the truth. A little appreciation on both sides please.

Why did the Zod part need to be so one sided? Couldn't they have combined Superman's extensive knowledge of HIS powers he's have for almost 3 decades (give or take) with Wonder Woman's knowledge of a warriors mind battle plan? Zod wouldn't know what hit him as the TEAM UP on him. There's no middle ground with this book I swear.

I don't get why they have to be so incomplete and ineffectual in this book just to show "they're stronger together" obviously they're stronger together that's just math. I'm looking for to characters coming together in all their glory not two suddenly incomplete characters making one sort of complete one. Somehow Superman now has reduced thought speed and common sense, and Wonder Woman forgets that Clark Kent is a thing. Why? To make some point that logically wouldn't be their otherwise? Why can't it just be fun to see them doing what they do best but this time together and they kiss at the end? That would be cool for me.

[BlackFeath]

There was something of this in issue 6, but not really at the levels I would like. Yep, the point of the first arc was to show how they are better together...and I agree I would really like it to be showed in a much better way on the pages...

I would like them to fight together very powerful enemies and to silently know what the other thinks without even talking, moving together as a whole, showing what a really good team they are together, supporting the strength of the other, and supplying for the other's point of weakness. In short...see them both being not only awesome at the same time, but more awesome they could ever think to be alone!

We have had this kind of teams up in the past, now that they are together it is even a better moment to show this.
We had even a good team up in Action Comics 600, when they fought together against Darkseid. Back then they barely knew each other, still they were able to recognize the enemy's trap and formulate a plan together without even the need to talk to defeat him.
That's an example of what I'd like to see...

Then yes, I could really understand why someone like Batman or Luthor could be really really scared about them being together. Together they just should be unstoppable.

Someway I think they really wasted a situation where this could have been showed with Doomsday. If Doomed wasn't to happen, and instead Doomsday was to be a SMWW villain... Wonder Woman had lost against him alone, Superman years before had managed to defeat him, but at the cost of his life. Now there's an even stronger Doomsday. Why couldn’t they have fought him together, showing just how much stronger they are together?
I felt disappointed u.u. Hadn't Diana said in issue 2 Superman wouldn't have had to fight Doomsday alone? Then that premise when she said they would have fought together before Doomsday escaped.

Sorry, but I can't see how it can be in character for her to send Clark to fight alone just a short time after u.u The poison wouldn't have been enough reason for her not to go...and after that we have even see how when she is in god mode it doesn't even affect her.

The rest of Doomed could just have continued to happen. After Doomsday was defeated, Clark could have just inhaled the poison like he has, to protect Smallville and also her, like he did in issue 6 with the explosion.


Anyway, I'd really like to see also other situations when they just go around the world helping people together. I liked the time when they freed the hostages in Kandaq in Justice League, but also doing other little things together would be nice. And yes...they also need moments of happiness... dates on unknown planets like in that image..., then sometimes something may happen and they may be needed, they do what they have to do, and then finally they return to what they had to interrupt.