Superman/Wonder Woman #11 Spoilers/Discussion

[Lax]

Seeing the way folks are analyzing this series shows me the extent of how Doomed has crippled the momentum of this book.

It's as if Superman/Wonder Woman stopped around issue #8 and then the "Doomed" event took it's place. More characters being introduced to serve the crossover translates into less interaction between Supes and Wondy within their own book.

When they do interact there's not much to build on because Superman is either under the influence or struggling with it. It's like trying to write two people progressing in a relationship when one is constantly high on meth and struggling with addiction for the second arc. Then it drags on, and on, and on without really going anywhere.

So when trying to analyze this book within the context of their relationship, we're left with one arc's worth of content in a series that's nearing the end of it's second. The criticisms I'm seeing now have already been brought up in the past, the difference is, the more time passes the more the lack of growth becomes magnified.

Soule probably senses this on some level which is probably part of the reason why issue #12 will be all lovey-dovey and romantic. The first arc was five issues of relationship drama with the sixth bringing them together. This arc seems to be following the same formula and that's not a fun pattern to read through month after month.

But hey, there's a new writer around the corner so maybe he'll be able to see what I'm talking about and avoid it. I suspect crossovers are more fun for the creators who get to bounce idea's off each other than it is for the readers who have to wait it out until they get their book back.

[dumbduck]

Seeing the way folks are analyzing this series shows me the extent of how Doomed has crippled the momentum of this book.

It's as if Superman/Wonder Woman stopped around issue #8 and then the "Doomed" event took it's place. More characters being introduced to serve the crossover translates into less interaction between Supes and Wondy within their own book.

When they do interact there's not much to build on because Superman is either under the influence or struggling with it. It's like trying to write two people progressing in a relationship when one is constantly high on meth and struggling with addiction for the second arc. Then it drags on, and on, and on without really going anywhere.

So when trying to analyze this book within the context of their relationship, we're left with one arc's worth of content in a series that's nearing the end of it's second. The criticisms I'm seeing now have already been brought up in the past, the difference is, the more time passes the more the lack of growth becomes magnified.

Soule probably senses this on some level which is probably part of the reason why issue #12 will be all lovey-dovey and romantic. The first arc was five issues of relationship drama with the sixth bringing them together. This arc seems to be following the same formula and that's not a fun pattern to read through month after month.

But hey, there's a new writer around the corner so maybe he'll be able to see what I'm talking about and avoid it. I suspect crossovers are more fun for the creators who get to bounce idea's off each other than it is for the readers who have to wait it out until they get their book back.

Perfect analysis. Thanks for putting my thoughts into paper in a much better way than I could.

[Diana X Kal]

I blame Doomed for everything.

[Superlad93]

Big part of it but I don't blame it for everything.

[dumbduck]

As if they could satisfy Wonder Woman fans when they continue to leave Superman fans unsatisfied. That whole fight with Zod is still ridiculous when you compare Soule's Superman to literally every other Superman that's currently being written (including Lobdell at the time) Superman was shown to be a mast of his powers and a very accomplished strategic thinker even when overcome with emotion. Pak Lobdell and Snyder's Superman are far and away above Soule's in that regard. But why? To drum up some ridiculous friction.

Why did Wonder Woman have to berate Superman on his fighting? It's been shown and told that he has taken learning to fight into account over the years. He's beaten two Krytonian level threats with the use of his knowledge of fighting. The world is his dojo and time is his master.

Don't get me wrong I'm just fine with Superman accepting help from others. That's one of the big aspects of the character regardless of how powerful he is. He's always humble and never turns away a helping had. But they way that Soule wrote it was as if Superman just ran into a fight a waved his arms around till he won. What Superman is he reading? Cuz Pak's Superman is just about one of the fastest thinkers I've ever seen. He puts his foe on their back while taking the whole situation into account. He's that good because he needs to be. It's what's expected of him so he pushed that hard. One of the central themes of Pak's run. Snyder's Superman is shown to be nearly as quick thinking as Pak's and almost as careful. Add on the idea that he has taken to learning resourceful combat against powerful foes and I wonder how anyone could question him knowing how to fight. Lobdell's Superman was pretty much good at EVERYTHING. He'd have his foes down before they even knew it. He used his powers in some of the most creative was possible to the point where he'd almost have created a new power. His gift for quick thinking, power use, and strategy was rather impressive.

So I go down to Soule's Superman and wonder why Wonder Woman is talking to him as if he'd never learned how to correctly throw a punch. Then I'm even more floored when Zod absolutely dominates him with no resistance from Superman. Soule just created that conflict to give Superman something to feel insecure about and throw Wonder Woman a bone as if she needed it. It's disrespectful to both characters if you ask me. Why couldn't the training have been just a wordless scene of him learning for a panel or three? Or a throw away line of "Wonder Woman showed me that". Instead it's this whole insinuation that Superman is just a dumb rock who just hopes he hits something really hard. Couldn't be farther from the truth. A little appreciation on both sides please.

Why did the Zod part need to be so one sided? Couldn't they have combined Superman's extensive knowledge of HIS powers he's have for almost 3 decades (give or take) with Wonder Woman's knowledge of a warriors mind battle plan? Zod wouldn't know what hit him as the TEAM UP on him. There's no middle ground with this book I swear.

I don't get why they have to be so incomplete and ineffectual in this book just to show "they're stronger together" obviously they're stronger together that's just math. I'm looking for to characters coming together in all their glory not two suddenly incomplete characters making one sort of complete one. Somehow Superman now has reduced thought speed and common sense, and Wonder Woman forgets that Clark Kent is a thing. Why? To make some point that logically wouldn't be their otherwise? Why can't it just be fun to see them doing what they do best but this time together and they kiss at the end? That would be cool for me.

I understand your dislike of that fight and the concept of Diana training Clark. They are not concepts that bother me that much, because Clark is still young. It worked better pre52 when Byrne cut off Supes from being Superboy and the LOS, but it still doesn't bother me that much. I agree that his mastery of his powers should give him an edge, but you should consider the way the 1st fight was setup, with Apollo powering them up, without them knowing it, and Clark trying to reason with them the whole time. The only thing I didn't really like was that what was setup in #1 wasn't followed through. Diana training Clark could have been very humorous and a means of evolving their character and the relationship, balancing from the drama a little bit.

I think one thing that should be instiled into Clark is his willingness to learn, grow, improve all the time, mastering his powers more and more. It's not something we've been shown.

[dumbduck]

There was something of this in issue 6, but not really at the levels I would like. Yep, the point of the first arc was to show how they are better together...and I agree I would really like it to be showed in a much better way on the pages...

I would like them to fight together very powerful enemies and to silently know what the other thinks without even talking, moving together as a whole, showing what a really good team they are together, supporting the strength of the other, and supplying for the other's point of weakness. In short...see them both being not only awesome at the same time, but more awesome they could ever think to be alone!

We have had this kind of teams up in the past, now that they are together it is even a better moment to show this.
We had even a good team up in Action Comics 600, when they fought together against Darkseid. Back then they barely knew each other, still they were able to recognize the enemy's trap and formulate a plan together without even the need to talk to defeat him.
That's an example of what I'd like to see...

Then yes, I could really understand why someone like Batman or Luthor could be really really scared about them being together. Together they just should be unstoppable.

Someway I think they really wasted a situation where this could have been showed with Doomsday. If Doomed wasn't to happen, and instead Doomsday was to be a SMWW villain... Wonder Woman had lost against him alone, Superman years before had managed to defeat him, but at the cost of his life. Now there's an even stronger Doomsday. Why couldn’t they have fought him together, showing just how much stronger they are together?
I felt disappointed u.u. Hadn't Diana said in issue 2 Superman wouldn't have had to fight Doomsday alone? Then that premise when she said they would have fought together before Doomsday escaped.

Sorry, but I can't see how it can be in character for her to send Clark to fight alone just a short time after u.u The poison wouldn't have been enough reason for her not to go...and after that we have even see how when she is in god mode it doesn't even affect her.

The rest of Doomed could just have continued to happen. After Doomsday was defeated, Clark could have just inhaled the poison like he has, to protect Smallville and also her, like he did in issue 6 with the explosion.


Anyway, I'd really like to see also other situations when they just go around the world helping people together. I liked the time when they freed the hostages in Kandaq in Justice League, but also doing other little things together would be nice. And yes...they also need moments of happiness... dates on unknown planets like in that image..., then sometimes something may happen and they may be needed, they do what they have to do, and then finally they return to what they had to interrupt.

Yup, I agree with everything. If she had fought with him, fallen with him, had been close by in the last moments of the fight, everything that happened afterwards in 'doomed' would have been much more personal, bittersweet, etc.

You know, if she had trained him, after she became Goddess of War, he would have become her 'soldier' kind off. So she would be able to comunicate with him telepathically. LOL.

[Superlad93]

I understand your dislike of that fight and the concept of Diana training Clark. They are not concepts that bother me that much, because Clark is still young. It worked better pre52 when Byrne cut off Supes from being Superboy and the LOS, but it still doesn't bother me that much. I agree that his mastery of his powers should give him an edge, but you should consider the way the 1st fight was setup, with Apollo powering them up, without them knowing it, and Clark trying to reason with them the whole time. The only thing I didn't really like was that what was setup in #1 wasn't followed through. Diana training Clark could have been very humorous and a means of evolving their character and the relationship, balancing from the drama a little bit.

But the thing is that it ignores all other material around it. Superman knows how to fight, and he does it very well. Talking to him like a rock is just forced and ridiculous to me when a week later I see him fight with strategy and pin point accuracy in literally 3 other books. My thing is that it didn't need to be a whole "you're just a big brute, Clark. learn to fight now, and I'm gonna teach you". I mean like WTF. Couldn't it have played out like Clark just wanting to learn more about her and her culture, and part of that is their ways of combat. It'll be handy in a fight sure but that's not the point of him learning it. He's doing it to be closer to her and share something with her. It didn't need to be so tens and quite frankly demeaning. It just didn't. After that there could have been some funny wordless scenes of him learning. Nothing to big just bonding and learning about each other. Superman returns the favor by teaching hero some advanced science he picked up on his travels. And again she doesn't learn it because she's a cave woman with no concept of scientific thought, but because this is the stuff that fascinates her boyfriend and she'd like to share some of that fascination with him. And sure he's young but that becomes moot when on multiple occasions he's praised on his skills as a fighter or out right showing them on full display. All the way since his fight with Cap. Comet in Morrison's run as he been shown and said to be well versed in combat of some form. It only goes up and up from there.


Also I get that the fight was set up and he was talking him down for a bit. BUT at some point Superman yells to Wonder Woman "where do you need me" indicating he is no longer talking them down and is ready for a fight, and he dose horribly as Wonder Woman steamrolls the show just to made up highlight some point in their relationship. The fight ends in a stalemate, right? Why then couldn't the stalemate have been do to the two of them combining there know how to fend Zod off? Why could that not have been how it played out?

It would have been Zod closing the gap a bit by being so well trained in the art of war but Kal keeping things at bay with his years of fighting and knowledge of his and Zod's powers. Wonder Woman comes in sets up a counter strategy to the one Zod is employing, and Superman exploits the vulnerabilities of newly power Kryptonians. Zod's a great commander though and Faora is ruthless so they hold a town or city hostage and force a stalemate. Boom. Done. Next time they can meet up and do their powered up fight against that ridiculous armor.

All this nonsense dealing with giving them these nonexistent issues is not fun to me. Lines like "you're better at flying than me" just sound ridiculous. What does that even mean?? If she'd said "you should go you're faster" sure why not, but "better at flying"? Is he gonna teach her how to fly better in gratitude of her teaching him how to throw a punch? Adding lines like this to the needless angst, romance novel-like drama, and no fun this book begins it irk me. It's well written for sure (I'll always give it that) but I personally think it's wrongheaded.

I truly don't mean to harp. I just have the feeling that I'm missing out on something that I'd been looking forward to since I was 6 years old, so it stings a bit that I'm not getting what seemed obvious to me. But it's not my comic to write. I just look elsewhere for entertainment. No harm done.

[Blacksun]

It's a romance not a competition, I don't think the writer understood that

[Lax]

I blame Doomed for everything.

The good news is that it should be getting better now. Superman/Wonder Woman futures end, issue #12, then a new writer with issue #13.


I'm curious to see what Tomasi does with this.