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  1. #61
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    Hi, new to the board,
    I politely disagree in the the beginning they wanted a shared universe.
    Saw Marvel making big money so they wanted in. But when it didn’t worked they hoped
    Studio backtracked and said we’re doing stand alones

  2. #62
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amerigo178 View Post
    Hi, new to the board,
    I politely disagree in the the beginning they wanted a shared universe.
    Saw Marvel making big money so they wanted in. But when it didn’t worked they hoped
    Studio backtracked and said we’re doing stand alones

    Hi and welcome!

  3. #63
    Chad Jar Jar Pinsir's Avatar
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    People throw this concept around that all the DCEU films will be 'standalone films' now, but this has always been the case. Every DCEU film has basically been a sequel or spin-off of a preexisting film. BvS is a sequel to MoS and JL is a sequel to BvS. If Zach Snyder continued his work, JL2 would have been a sequel to JL. There has never been any evidence that the cast SS would meet up with JL or that the individual JL member films were going to play an important role in Snyder's broader narrative.
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    People throw this concept around that all the DCEU films will be 'standalone films' now, but this has always been the case. Every DCEU film has basically been a sequel or spin-off of a preexisting film. BvS is a sequel to MoS and JL is a sequel to BvS. If Zach Snyder continued his work, JL2 would have been a sequel to JL. There has never been any evidence that the cast SS would meet up with JL or that the individual JL member films were going to play an important role in Snyder's broader narrative.
    yes!!!!!

    this is exactly what I've been saying

    the only reason people would deny this is because it doesn't line up with the idea that the DCEU "failed" or had missteps in "creating a universe." they literally just wanted to tell DC stories regardless of whether they were canon or not. Before BvS came out, Cavill was in brief talks to do a Red Son film.

    people will also ignore the fact there has never been an official name for this "universe" they speak of. DCEU was a term created by fans and has never been used on any official basis.

  5. #65
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Suicide Squad referenced Superman's death as a plot point (and the Flash cameod). Wonder Woman's backstory was set up in BvS and her meeting with Bruce was referenced . It was setting up a shared universe, albeit one that maybe wasn't aiming to cross over as heavily as the MCU and let stories stand on their own a bit more, but being in the same continuity = shared universe.

    I don't know why this is so difficult. If they were completely stand alone films, they wouldn't share continuity period. Snyder's casting of Gadot wouldn't carry over to WW for example, Jenkins would have a blank slate to do whatever she wanted.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Suicide Squad referenced Superman's death as a plot point (and the Flash cameod). Wonder Woman's backstory was set up in BvS and her meeting with Bruce was referenced . It was setting up a shared universe, albeit one that maybe wasn't aiming to cross over as heavily as the MCU and let stories stand on their own a bit more, but being in the same continuity = shared universe.

    I don't know why this is so difficult. If they were completely stand alone films, they wouldn't share continuity period. Snyder's casting of Gadot wouldn't carry over to WW for example, Jenkins would have a blank slate to do whatever she wanted.
    the point is that some do, some don't, and it doesn't matter.

    Flash and Batman appear because SS is a DC film and they are DC characters. it's the same thing as those characters appearing in the respective comic books. it doesn't mean they have to share a universe. you're getting a little confused here. nothing actually indicated these stories took place in a shared universe. It works with a headcanon, but that wasn't the intention. Batman appears because he's connected to Joker, Harley, and Deadshot. Flash appears because he's connected to Captain Boomerang. the tease at the end is PROMOTION for Justice league. you can watch any of the films independently. they CAN be connected, but they aren't MEANT to be.
    Last edited by Elmo; 06-19-2020 at 11:46 AM.

  7. #67
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elmo View Post
    the point is that some do, some don't, and it doesn't matter.

    Flash and Batman appear because SS is a DC film and they are DC characters. it's the same thing as those characters appearing in the respective comic books. it doesn't mean they [i]have[]/i] to share a universe. you're getting a little confused here. nothing actually indicated these stories took place in a shared universe. It works with a headcanon, but that wasn't the intention. Batman appears because he's connected to Joker, Harley, and Deadshot. Flash appears because he's connected to Captain Boomerang. the tease at the end is PROMOTION for Justice league. you can watch any of the films independently. they CAN be connected, but they aren't MEANT to be.
    Lol someone's confused here, and it's not me.

    So you realize when they appear in each others comics, they are in often a shared universe (for the main one)? Not all reading is required if you go back to Batman's solo adventures, but it's a shared continuity. And Superman's death is referenced as a plot point in SS. So what, there are two timelines out there with Batfleck and a recently dead Superman being presented to a mainstream audience, but they are not the same and not connected? Batfleck also met Wonder Woman who fought in WWI in two different universe and she had the same photo with Steve and Oddfellows in both? This is less confusing than just admitting they are a shared universe why?

    They meet the bare minimum requirements: a shared continuity. No ifs, ands or buts. Nobody is saying it's a bad thing, they have a comparable set of characters in a shared fictional universe, why not try to make one like the MCU with your own sensibilities? To deny that that was what they are doing is ignoring reality. Joker meanwhile was a truly stand alone film not in a shared universe.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Lol someone's confused here, and it's not me.

    So you realize when they appear in each others comics, they are in often a shared universe (for the main one)? Not all reading is required if you go back to Batman's solo adventures, but it's a shared continuity. And Superman's death is referenced as a plot point in SS. So what, there are two timelines out there with Batfleck and a recently dead Superman being presented to a mainstream audience, but they are not the same and not connected? Batfleck also met Wonder Woman who fought in WWI in two different universe and she had the same photo with Steve and Oddfellows in both? This is less confusing than just admitting they are a shared universe why?

    They meet the bare minimum requirements: a shared continuity. No ifs, ands or buts. Nobody is saying it's a bad thing, they have a comparable set of characters in a shared fictional universe, why not try to make one like the MCU with your own sensibilities? To deny that that was what they are doing is ignoring reality. Joker meanwhile was a truly stand alone film not in a shared universe.
    you're acting like all of these things that have occurred NEED to have happened in a shared continuity. it literally doesn't matter. I never said certain films don't share continuity, my point is and always was that it was never the primary intention. that's why they never branded their movies as a shared universe. this obsession of making sure all these characters and movies absolutely need to be connected to each other is ridiculous imo. like obviously it makes sense to see WW as a prequel to BvS and Justice League, but it doesn't need to be. you can watch it and not even consider the other films. same with Aquaman, same with Suicide Squad, same with Shazam, etc,. if movies can't hold up on their own then what's the point?

    it's one of my main gripes with the MCU. a lot of people watch those movies looking for cameos, easter eggs, references, crossovers, all while debating on future films before the film even comes out. not saying this is you or that it's everyone, it's just what I see. an obsession with continuity. DC is out here saying that yes, they can be connected, if that makes you comfortable, but it's not the intention. they just want to tell great stories.

    edit: there's no phase 1-4. there's no Thanos and Infinity gems storyline. these films aren't building to anything. Snyder was doing HIS thing, and that was it. at the end of the day, they're stories, and they should hold up on their own merits rather than where they fit in some timeline. that's not the point and it never was. just because it looks like backtracking to you doesn't mean that's what it is, this is what WB/DC was outright declaring even after MoS came out.
    Last edited by Elmo; 06-19-2020 at 12:12 PM.

  9. #69
    Chad Jar Jar Pinsir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holt View Post
    No, we're not gonna pretend it wouldn't have made a lot more had it not had one of the worst week 2 drops in history, which happened because of negative word of mouth.The first cinematic meeting of Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman should've made a lot more than that and yet it somehow made less than the previous two solo Batman movies.
    It does always amaze me that people somehow convinced themselves that BvS wouldn't be a Zach Snyder film. Zach Snyder has very devoted audience, but his films don't have as broad as appeal as a traditional blockbuster. He could have directed an Avengers film and the same thing would have happened. For a Zach Snyder film, BvS over performed if anything. Also rebooted character almost never make as much as their original debut film, we can tell just by looking at the BO history of Superman, Spiderman and Batman.

    The funny thing is that people think I'm elitist for saying objectively bad movies are bad, yet when people like you talk about the audience its like they are drones.


    The DCEU specifically? No. Again, they have a franchise in the same genre that is already wildly more successful and without the hiccups. Pretending they're envious of DC is fanboyism.
    I think my words are being misconstrued here, I said in my original statement that "Disney would kill for a franchise like the DCEU." Disney clearly still wants more franchises and they would want a franchise like the DCEU that has such a successful track record and a devoted fanbase. I'm not saying they're envious of the DCEU.
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  10. #70
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elmo View Post
    you're acting like all of these things that have occurred NEED to have happened in a shared continuity. it literally doesn't matter. I never said certain films don't share continuity, my point is and always was that it was never the primary intention. that's why they never branded their movies as a shared universe. this obsession of making sure all these characters and movies absolutely need to be connected to each other is ridiculous imo. like obviously it makes sense to see WW as a prequel to BvS and Justice League, but it doesn't need to be. you can watch it and not even consider the other films. same with Aquaman, same with Suicide Squad, same with Shazam, etc,. if movies can't hold up on their own then what's the point?

    it's one of my main gripes with the MCU. a lot of people watch those movies looking for cameos, easter eggs, references, crossovers, all while debating on future films before the film even comes out. not saying this is you or that it's everyone, it's just what I see. an obsession with continuity. DC is out here saying that yes, they can be connected, if that makes you comfortable, but it's not the intention. they just want to tell great stories.
    I'm not saying they need to, I'm saying they blatantly did at least early on. Yes you can watch some of them without needing to watch the others, but it's still a shared continuity and calling it a shared universe isn't false. To say it isn't shared is to deny reality. It was the intention, at least early on. We even have a quote from one of the former CEOs on the last page saying it was the intention.

    That isn't to say they didn't intent to cross over less than the MCU. I actually think having a share universe of mostly stand alone films where the characters don't meet up as much outside of specific shared films (like JL team ups) is actually a good way to differentiate from Marvel, at least on paper. It would help the. They just went about a completely batshit way of doing it. But it still was an experiment in a shared universe, just because its approach was different than the MCU doesn't mean it wasn't intended. Since JL, they've scaled it back even more where each of the sub-IPs are more stand alone. Which is honestly what they should have lead with instead of a depressing Batman/Superman movie that is trying to do too much at once.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    It does always amaze me that people somehow convinced themselves that BvS wouldn't be a Zach Snyder film. Zach Snyder has very devoted audience, but his films don't have as broad as appeal as a traditional blockbuster. He could have directed an Avengers film and the same thing would have happened. For a Zach Snyder film, BvS over performed if anything. Also rebooted character almost never make as much as their original debut film, we can tell just by looking at the BO history of Superman, Spiderman and Batman.

    The funny thing is that people think I'm elitist for saying objectively bad movies are bad, yet when people like you talk about the audience its like they are drones.
    It's the studios' fault for putting Snyder in charge and not realizing his approach was not suited for the job. Snyder was gonna Snyder. His intentions and their desire for a broadly appealing movie were not on the same page. It overperformed for a Snyder movie only because of the two icons it was presenting (the casuals showed up for them, not Snyder), and sank like a stone when people got a good look at it.
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 06-19-2020 at 12:24 PM.

  11. #71
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    The fate of the DCEU should be just run out the Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and Shazam sequels, hopefully do Gotham City Sirens and Birds of Prey vs Gotham City Sirens, keep The Batman in a separate continuity, get someone on that Joker sequel, and don't do crossovers like BvS or Justice League again until 2030.

  12. #72
    Chad Jar Jar Pinsir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Suicide Squad referenced Superman's death as a plot point (and the Flash cameod). Wonder Woman's backstory was set up in BvS and her meeting with Bruce was referenced . It was setting up a shared universe, albeit one that maybe wasn't aiming to cross over as heavily as the MCU and let stories stand on their own a bit more, but being in the same continuity = shared universe.

    I don't know why this is so difficult. If they were completely stand alone films, they wouldn't share continuity period. Snyder's casting of Gadot wouldn't carry over to WW for example, Jenkins would have a blank slate to do whatever she wanted.
    I'm not denying that the DCEU is a shared universe though. I'm arguing that there was never a pay off, there was no moment where everyone from across all franchises united to defeat Darkseid moment. It would be more like in the comics where the author of the JL has their own story, the author of WW has their own story, the author of Batman has their own story, etc and these stories don't intersect.

    The issue here is that 'standalone' is kind of vague;

    >>> Does it mean that these that future films will exist in their own universe? Well, no, this clearly not the case. Shazam and BoP both had references previous films and future films will also have references too. Yet, I think a lot anti-DCEU people think standalone means this.
    >>> Does it mean that that films will exist in the same universe, but each movie will focus on a specific character? Yeah, but that isn't any different than what we had before.
    >>> Does it mean it mean no more JL films? I think its this. We're still gonna get crossovers I think, but no more JL films, at least for now. It was JL that was the real problem for WB, not BvS, and its still the only film in the DCEU that flopped.
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  13. #73
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    >>> Does it mean that that films will exist in the same universe, but each movie will focus on a specific character? Yeah, but that isn't any different than what we had before.
    I think the issue is that we didn't get very far into the DCEU as-it-was to see if this was really what we were going to have before. Suicide Squad acted under the assumption that people had seen Superman die in a previous film. Wonder Woman was more self contained in comparison, but you still have people wondering where Bruce Wayne comes into the mix if they haven't seen BvS and why she's writing her life story to him in an email.

    Whereas now we have WW1984 and Aquaman 2 which are unlikely to reference each other in a significant way, and I don't think Wonder Woman 3 will tie into anything else that isn't WW-related either. With how reactionary and all-over-the place the studio has been, it's hard to tell. But based on those first few films and the clear cutting off point between the old plan and the course correction (pre- JL and post-JL), the approach looks slightly different. Especially when you throw Joker and The Batman into the mix and Affleck's departure.

  14. #74
    Chad Jar Jar Pinsir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post

    It's the studios' fault for putting Snyder in charge and not realizing his approach was not suited for the job. Snyder was gonna Snyder. His intentions and their desire for a broadly appealing movie were not on the same page. It overperformed for a Snyder movie only because of the two icons it was presenting (the casuals showed up for them, not Snyder), and sank like a stone when people got a good look at it.
    I agree in hindsight, but a decade ago Zach Snyder was an obvious pick. He had done previous work on comic book films, one of which, 300, was a major pop cultural touchstone. I remember reading articles about Zach Snyder back then and there just wasn't the same hatred directed at the man as there is now. It is entirely possible, to make a well informed decision and for it to still be the wrong choice.

    We can't really fault WB for picking Snyder, but I think it was clear that after BvS he shouldn't have been put on JL. Nor should WB have allowed Snyder to make a 4 hour movie. They are wholly to blame for that crap.
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  15. #75
    Amazing Member noisebloom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elmo View Post
    people will also ignore the fact there has never been an official name for this "universe" they speak of. DCEU was a term created by fans and has never been used on any official basis.
    It is now, kind of:

    https://screenrant.com/dceu-movie-fr...icial-hbo-max/

    I basically agree with the sentiment that any sort of continuity implies a shared universe.

    As to what extent DC/WB wanted to push this to be successful, I'm not going to delve further as this debate is going nowhere.

    However, at the very least, one can make the observation that the DCEU featured two superhero "team" movies before many solo films had been created in this new "run" of films. One can infer that they believed these "team" movies would be successful.

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