Do you think Cassandra Nova should be forgiven since she's a mutant?

[Veitha]

The psychopath has mental implants in place to prevent betrayal and is the key to Resurrections. And if he ever did something bad, he can still be punished.

Nova would only bring destruction and has only hate for mutants. She'd be only a liability and a danger to the island and it makes no sense for her to try and become a Krakoan if not for destroying it.

[Bunch of Coconuts]

Their entire society as it stands rn is built w/ the avoidance of the "next stage" in mind

So...it’s OK for mutants to prevent their evolutionary upgraded replacements, but it’s not OK for humans to do the same?

[Bunch of Coconuts]

At this I think point it's become kind of a useless debate.

Welcome to the X-Forums! Hope you survive the experience...

[Steel Inquisitor]

The psychopath has mental implants in place to prevent betrayal and is the key to Resurrections. And if he ever did something bad, he can still be punished.

Nova would only bring destruction and has only hate for mutants. She'd be only a liability and a danger to the island and it makes no sense for her to try and become a Krakoan if not for destroying it.

Before Hickman you could say that for most of the Quiet Council, yet strangely they're all being team players at the moment when they should be doing their own recreation of Game of Thrones. Everything that applies to them applies to her, Nova isn't special in their rogues gallery and it's not like she wouldn't be capable of being a powerful ally were they to get her on board.

It's not like Sinister cares about the mutant race, like Apocalypse all mutants are to him are expendable tools to be manipulated and discarded at will. The line between him and Nova is very thin.

[Bunch of Coconuts]

If all Sinister gains from “playing nice” is being able to make clones of people...well, he already had that down pat.

So...what is he getting as a benefit?

[Veitha]

Before Hickman you could say that for most of the Quiet Council, yet strangely they're all being team players at the moment when they should be doing their own recreation of Game of Thrones. Everything that applies to them applies to her, Nova isn't special in their rogues gallery and it's not like she wouldn't be capable of being a powerful ally were they to get her on board.

It's not like Sinister cares about the mutant race, like Apocalypse all mutants are to him are expendable tools to be manipulated and discarded at will. The line between him and Nova is very thin.

She is, read her comics.

[Veitha]

If all Sinister gains from “playing nice” is being able to make clones of people...well, he already had that down pat.

So...what is he getting as a benefit?

He's getting something out of it for sure. But Nova would just get on the island, set everything on fire and piss on their corpses. Sinister is bringing something to the table and he's easier to control than Nova.

[Steel Inquisitor]

She is, read her comics.

I have. From Sinister's precedent all she needs to do is copy the mutant x-gene and be a powerful ally with her skills, powers and resources. Which she has in spades. If Sinister can get an in on Krakoa she should be able to.

[Havok83]

I have. From Sinister's precedent all she needs to do is copy the mutant x-gene and be a powerful ally with her skills, powers and resources. Which she has in spades. If Sinister can get an in on Krakoa she should be able to.

She is mentally incapable of that. Sinister for all the terrible stuff he's done can be reasoned with and play nice. Nova lacks empathy and she only exist to hate and cause destruction. Jean literally had to rewire her brain in order to stp her and they would need to do that again to even be around her. Even then, who would want to completely trust someone that doesnt have free will, but rather was psychic directive to change? She really would need to choose it for herself and I dont believe she has the capacity to do so. An island full of mutants? Thats like her playground. This would be worse than inviting the Scarlet Witch over

[Veitha]

I have. From Sinister's precedent all she needs to do is copy the mutant x-gene and be a powerful ally with her skills, powers and resources. Which she has in spades. If Sinister can get an in on Krakoa she should be able to.

That's not the same, and we've already told you why plenty of times.

She has mentally incapable of that. Sinister for all the terrible stuff he's done can be reasoned with and play nice. Nova lacks empathy and she only exist to hate and cause destruction. Jean literally had to rewire her brain in order to stp her and they would need to do that again to even be around her. Even then, who would want to completely trust someone that doesnt have free will, but rather was psychic directive to change? She really would need to choose it for herself and I dont believe she has the capacity to do so. An island full of mutants? Thats like her playground. This would be worse than inviting the Scarlet Witch over

^ this.

[houndsofluv]

So...it’s OK for mutants to prevent their evolutionary upgraded replacements, but it’s not OK for humans to do the same?

lol im not like advocating for it just offering context . its an ongoing plot point. and I guess that connects to this:

Don't worry about Hickman, he knows what he's doing. Villainous protagonists are entertaining as long as you don't forget that they're villains.

https://ew.com/article/2015/01/29/jo...-horror-story/

a major aspect of Hickman's overarching story has been blurring the hero/villain paradigm . None of these characters are operating under black and white distinctions - its fully grey. His story won't hold up under these constraints because it doesn't subscribe to them

[Steel Inquisitor]

a major aspect of Hickman's overarching story has been blurring the hero/villain paradigm . None of these characters are operating under black and white distinctions - its fully grey. His story won't hold up under these constraints because it doesn't subscribe to them

Hickman personally called the Illuminati "villains," therefore it would transfer over to Krakoa who are making similar decisions. He wouldn't call characters that if he thought they were on the right side of the story, that word has a precise meaning.

[houndsofluv]

Hickman personally called the Illuminati "villains," therefore it would transfer over to Krakoa who are making similar decisions. He wouldn't call characters that if he thought they were on the right side of the story, that word has a precise meaning.

The premise of Avengers is that it’s a book about light and life, and New Avengers was always about darkness and death, and they contrast each other. What nobody saw coming was that the New Avengers book would completely eclipse the Avengers book at the end of the second act and rocket us into the stuff that’s going on now.

We get to a point where all of the arguments that we’ve kind of been talking about in both books — what do heroes do when they can’t win? — that’s kind of the story that I wanted to do. Some of them stop acting like heroes and some become villains, some go quietly and some do not. Some rediscover who they are.

A lot of the interesting chatter about the book has been kind of this weird pragmatism where people think that the New Avengers characters, the Illuminati characters, are the heroes, and that the Avengers characters are being overly idyllic and nobody understands that everything is a life and death scenario. No matter what, it’s more important if you stay alive.

is this the section you're talking about? if anything this speaks to his interest in exploring the breadth of "moral grey" between the archetypal Hero and Villain. I think the last paragraph especially signals his interest in fan response - looking at his current run I'd say he's definitely keeping an eye on how far he can push the envelope, how far until his x-men cross definitively into the "villain" threshold in our eyes? For some readers they already have and for others they still have a ways to go so I'd say he's succeeding

I think we both sort of agree on that but diverge when it comes to how the x-men are gonna look when they come out on the other side of Hickman's story. I don't think they're necessarily "villainous heroes" and I think it'd be unreasonable for them to be vilified in the end but I don't think we're supposed to feel entirely comfortable with all their choices either. But if the x-men are ultimately the "villains" then what was the point of all the grey ? it would cheapen it imo

but anyways...how far off topic are we lol

[Bunch of Coconuts]

lol im not like advocating for it just offering context . its an ongoing plot point. and I guess that connects to this:



a major aspect of Hickman's overarching story has been blurring the hero/villain paradigm . None of these characters are operating under black and white distinctions - its fully grey. His story won't hold up under these constraints because it doesn't subscribe to them

Being morally grey really doesn’t have anything to do with being hypocritical.

Well, not inherently.

[Zelena]

a major aspect of Hickman's overarching story has been blurring the hero/villain paradigm . None of these characters are operating under black and white distinctions - its fully grey. His story won't hold up under these constraints because it doesn't subscribe to them

Oh, everyone think they do the right thing, even the villains. They don't consider themselves as 'gray'.

How many times Magneto justified the violence he perpetrated by arguments about what is wrong and what is right. And, of course, he considered himself as right.

You want Sinister to be good, he will be good… according to his definition of good.
My definition of right and wrong doesn't change according to a comic author, though…