Thoughts on the current Batfamily line? Things you like? Things you’d change?

[Frontier]

Arround that time (= when Chuck Dixon was writing most of books) you had actually quite often interaction between the different Batfamily members, and those were mostly quite well handled.

And Dick and Tim had a several team up stories and Tim being a replacement was never a problem.

In current comics the biggest problem with the cross overs are imo that they put to many characters in one story and have nothing to do for all of them, or that they write some of these characters not that great.

Yeah, one thing I feel like has been really missing from the line is actually developed character dynamics/relationships among the Batfamily.

We hardly see any relationship building or social interaction among the family, outside 'Tec where it was relegated to just among the team, and the family aspect only comes into play for generic scenes of the family together where they're all indistinguishable from each other.

[godisawesome]

Yeah, one thing I feel like has been really missing from the line is actually developed character dynamics/relationships among the Batfamily.

We hardly see any relationship building or social interaction among the family, outside 'Tec where it was relegated to just among the team, and the family aspect only comes into play for generic scenes of the family together where they're all indistinguishable from each other.

I remember Gates of Gotham managing to just get a short scene of Damian being a brat towards Cass, and of Tim and Damian maintaining their frenemy relationship, and it being worth it. Tomais tried doing something similar in the early days of New 52 Batman and Robin, and had it about half right.

I think the real key is you need either friendly enough creators to work together and honor each others’ work, or have the same creator nail the interactions (a la Dixon when he was writing about half the books). With Tynion on Tec Rebirth, the irony is that he seems to stumble and fumble more with his preferred characters than the others.

[Aahz]

With Tynion on Tec Rebirth, the irony is that he seems to stumble and fumble more with his preferred characters than the others.

The other problem was also that most of the core Batfamily members were not on the team, and that Tim was "dead" and Spoiler was "going rogue" for half of that run.
I mean it is nice to Azrael and Batwing bond, but I don't think that they were the characters fans were really interested in.

How Duke Thomas is handled is imo also an example for what is going wrong, I guess he is nor supposed to also one of Batman sons, but they have really put no efford in fleshing out his dynamic with the rest of the core Batfamily.

[Light of Justice]

The other problem was also that most of the core Batfamily members were not on the team, and that Tim was "dead" and Spoiler was "going rogue" for half of that run.
I mean it is nice to Azrael and Batwing bond, but I don't think that they were the characters fans were really interested in.

How Duke Thomas is handled is imo also an example for what is going wrong, I guess he is nor supposed to also one of Batman sons, but they have really put no efford in fleshing out his dynamic with the rest of the core Batfamily.

To be fair, Duke has interesting dynamic with Damian in the end of Robin War. They even went to movie together. But of course Patrick destroyed that and make Damian rejected Duke's place on Batfamily on Batman and The Signal issue #1 because apart from few writer like Tomasi, Gleason, and Seeley no one want to write Damian has bonding with anyone.

[Aahz]

To be fair, Duke has interesting dynamic with Damian in the end of Robin War.

For about one page, he had also one short story together with Jason (IIRC in one of the new talent showcases) but those things are nor real replacement for proper team up stories.

I mean just look at Tim's earlier years as Robin, he got complete story arcs were he teamed up with Nightwing, Huntress, Azrael and Spoiler.

[Digifiend]

I think I want Tim to be included more with Batfam. Like, is there any Batfam member except Steph who knows that he's now named Drake? I don't think Mr. Overly Paranoid Wayne approve that Tim literally use his last name as superhero identity. I already disapprove that Tim changed his name without any relation of Bruce. Dick changed his hero name as Nightwing because of his disagreement with Bruce. Jason changed his hero name as Red Hood because of his disappointment with Bruce. They accepted Robin title because Bruce gave them, so to detach Robin title because of Bruce is understandable. I know that his title is more Red Robin than Robin, but still he used the title Bruce gave him as part of his superhero name. To detach that title with his literal last name without any mention to Bruce, for me make him looks very estranged from Bruce and Batfam in general.

He didn't have to have a conflict with Bruce like Dick and Jason, just at least he should talk or interacting with Bruce first before he released Robin title and got new identity. So I think I want a batman issue or Tec issue that include Tim's superhero identity shift (if that shift is supposed to be permanent I HOPE IT'S NOT)

Good news, it's not. Steph complained about the name and costume as soon as she saw it, and Tim seems to be calling himself Robin again.

And Tim really needs a solo (maybe with Steph as co lead), to get him back on track.

Yes please.

[Jackalope89]

Good news, it's not. Steph complained about the name and costume as soon as she saw it, and Tim seems to be calling himself Robin again.
Yes please.

So duck boy is now going to be a 13 year old's replacement as Robin?

Red Robin was fine, one liner aside.

[Shadowcat]

I liked the idea of Anarky being a former Robin so I'd do that in a potential reboot.

This is an idea I’ve had mulling around in my head for awhile, but I’d have Anarky as the former sidekick of the Wrath. A nice little nod to pre-Crisis history, while also not giving us yet another Robin.

[scary harpy]

Good news, it's not. Steph complained about the name and costume as soon as she saw it, and Tim seems to be calling himself Robin again.

When & where did this occur?

I do not adore Drake...but I disliked Red Robin. Since Damian is Robin, Tim will have to be Drake...for now.

[Man_of_Tomorrow]

Joker should take a break. He is eating up time that could be used to expand the rogues gallery or create new villains. He has become a crutch and he is the single reason Batman's rogue gallery is going stale.

Reduce the number of titles. There are too many Bat family books now without direction, just to capitalize on the Batman name. If DC doesn't have a story to tell with Nightwing, Batgirl, Robin etc. Maybe a team book, or an anthology with revolving protagonists would be better than 5 titles with no excuse for existing. And the sheer size of the Bat-family has become unwieldly.

Stop regression. Stephanie, Dick and especially Barbara really took the major of it because of New 52. Barbara going back into Batgirl was a bad decision all around, they took one of the few heroines with disabilities, who had a solid fanbase and also broke the Birds of Prey dynamic. Dick returning as Nightwing after being Batman felt like a demotion and it especially didn't help that his stories turned into "I am not a sidekick anymore, so I am going out on my own now" again and again, which was literally the premise of the Chuck Dixon run in the 90s. And when Grayson finally showed a direction that worked, DC threw it away.

[Rise]

I thought before that it's possible to manage too many characters at once until I played a mobile game which is basically a major crossover with over 100 characters that managed to handle all of them well and made them shine.

The problem with the batfamily line isn't their numbers, the problem is that the line simply needs a good editor.

[Oberon]

It's time to grow and move on.

As someone who got into DC just before the 2000's I don't want to go back to the old days.

I also don't want Dick in leotards and bare legs.

I can give you no bare legs, but my back to the basics would have to include the original Bat-Girl, Betty/e Kane

[godisawesome]

I thought before that it's possible to manage too many characters at once until I played a mobile game which is basically a major crossover with over 100 characters that managed to handle all of them well and made them shine.

The problem with the batfamily line isn't their numbers, the problem is that the line simply needs a good editor.

I think you need some combination of a pretty-competent-to-great editor with a pretty-competent-to-great stable of writers for whatever books you what to publish; Denny O’Neil (RIP) managed to go years without any major superstars, while an editor isn’t as necessary if you’ve got the kind of creative teams that the BatBooks had before Flashpoint.

I think the main issue is that we’ve got a storm of bad editorial decisions and not-quite-up-to-snuff creative team in the main Batman books right now, as well as a possible rivalry between King and Snyder/Snyder’s students.

[scary harpy]

I can give you no bare legs, but my back to the basics would have to include the original Bat-Girl, Betty/e Kane

Works for me. I adore Betty/e.

I think you need some combination of a pretty-competent-to-great editor with a pretty-competent-to-great stable of writers for whatever books you what to publish; Denny O’Neil (RIP) managed to go years without any major superstars, while an editor isn’t as necessary if you’ve got the kind of creative teams that the BatBooks had before Flashpoint.

I think the main issue is that we’ve got a storm of bad editorial decisions and not-quite-up-to-snuff creative team in the main Batman books right now, as well as a possible rivalry between King and Snyder/Snyder’s students.

Agreed. Agreed.

This is why I want a hard reboot and not the usual half-arsed resets that DC gives us every time. It is past time that a lot of bad ideas were flushed; if it didn't work then, it won't work now.

I think it was Len Wein who said that about every 10 years the (DC) universe needed an enema; I have to agree with him on that.

[godisawesome]

Works for me. I adore Betty/e.



Agreed. Agreed.

This is why I want a hard reboot and not the usual half-arsed resets that DC gives us every time. It is past time that a lot of bad ideas were flushed; if it didn't work then, it won't work now.

I think it was Len Wein who said that about every 10 years the (DC) universe needed an enema; I have to agree with him on that.

I think the objection to a true hard reboot is this: is that kind of drastic action really the only way to perform this “enema”?

Looking back on the Post-Crisis set-up... the franchises that wound up being healthiest decades later were the ones that had the least hard reboots - Batman, Flash, and Green Lantern.

Batman only had Jason Todd’s story get hard rebooted (everything else was repackaged at a leisurely pace... and was still subject to being honored or ignored depending on how later creators viewed it), Green Lantern only gained Alan Scott as a same-world inspiration, and Wally became Flash while explicitly acknowledging Barry’s reign as the Flash.

Not coincidentally, Flash was much more damaged by the harder reboot of the New 52, Green Lantern barely flinched because it barely had anything more than a few more lines added to the costumes, and the Batman books wound up being a weird miasma where the stuff that was least touched by the reboot was the healthiest - Damian, Bruce, Jason and Dick arguably struggled the least, while the Batgirls and Tim suffered the most.