Thoughts on the current Batfamily line? Things you like? Things you’d change?

[dietrich]

@dietrich, I don't know what Red Hood comic you've been reading, but this quote?


Not really true.

Jason has had a clear direction most of the time since Lobdell took the book. It's editorial with the constant events who had derailed the original plans since more or less the middle of the curren book. Right now? It has a very clear direction, wrapping the whole run, even.

Jason has built his own cast since, again, Lobdell took the book. He has given Jason a group of reformed villains (the sisters), his own support secret ninja cult (the all-caste) and villains (the untitled, Solitary, some other one-time tugs and villains), his Alfred (Ma Gunn, who's actually an old, one-time in one issue character from post-crisis), his own police character (an FBI agent that I'm sure he would have used more often with time), a group of children to guide and care for, romantic interest (besides Artemis, which is arguable who gave Jason her, Lobdell has given Jason Isabel and Essence), and other collaborators (like the woman from that mercenary agency in Red Hood/Arsenal). So, eh, you may not like them; but for what's an arguable short period of time, he's gained a respectable number of original fellows for his stories. And I'm pretty sure more than a few of them are going to stick to his personal wall.

Why Batman is calling himself BATman? He doesn't like like the bats. Why is Man-Bat named Batman? He doesn't like with the batfam. Why is Nighjtwing still with the Batfam? He uses a kryponian name---Eh, at the risk of sounding defensive, or sounding offensive... Come on.

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Edit: @godisawesome, Dustin Nguyen and Paul Dini in a Gotham book, that's something I want to read. But I suspect it would be way easier to see Nguyen drawing for Tim: it's his fave Robin, apparently. So, if Tim were the lead...

I should ask you the same question

What is Jason's current direction?
Is he a hero or a villain?
What ideology is he following and what are his plans or ways he has tried or is trying to pursue this ideology or direction?

Jason has been going round in circles for years and nope it's not down to editorial since all titles are effected by editorial plans. Jason being a title that is pretty isolated is less victim to editorial interference.

Red Hood also isn't a corporate character like Robin or Batgirl so the direction the character takes is mostly down to the writer.

If you truly believe that Jason has an established cast for someone who has had the same writer for 10 years then I don't know what to say to you.


The only thing I can blame on editorial is Jason wearing the Jokers hood and the Bat brand. That inconsistency is on management and I can see the reason why.
The Bat brand is a value adding.

[dietrich]

I think I want Tim to be included more with Batfam. Like, is there any Batfam member except Steph who knows that he's now named Drake? I don't think Mr. Overly Paranoid Wayne approve that Tim literally use his last name as superhero identity. I already disapprove that Tim changed his name without any relation of Bruce. Dick changed his hero name as Nightwing because of his disagreement with Bruce. Jason changed his hero name as Red Hood because of his disappointment with Bruce. They accepted Robin title because Bruce gave them, so to detach Robin title because of Bruce is understandable. I know that his title is more Red Robin than Robin, but still he used the title Bruce gave him as part of his superhero name. To detach that title with his literal last name without any mention to Bruce, for me make him looks very estranged from Bruce and Batfam in general.

He didn't have to have a conflict with Bruce like Dick and Jason, just at least he should talk or interacting with Bruce first before he released Robin title and got new identity. So I think I want a batman issue or Tec issue that include Tim's superhero identity shift (if that shift is supposed to be permanent I HOPE IT'S NOT)

Bruce has no business giving Robin to anyone but I agree with you that Tim shouldn't be Drake nor should he be changing his name on another Earth away from his family.

I refuse to call him Drake. Tim is Red Robin. There's nothing wrong with that name only silly fans and that stupid meme.

Bruce detached Tim from Robin when he returned. Tynion did a half-arsed job when he reintroduced Tim's old history in Rebirth Tec.

I don't need bruce detaching Tim for a position that has since had 3 replacements. I want Tim just casually mentioning a new name to his allies and his reason for picking it and then moving on.

it's been more than 10 years and even Duke has moved past the whole not-Robin-name thing and Tim is still here doing it.

The debacle of what Tim should be called is overshadowing the character himself.

[Zaresh]

I should ask you the same question

What is Jason's current direction?
Is he a hero or a villain?
What ideology is he following and what are his plans or ways he has tried or is trying to pursue this ideology or direction?

Yes, he has. He has established himself as an independent anti-hero, much like Dick did before him, even more than Tim did by the end of the post-Crisis chronology, where he was pretty independent himself. Not to the same level Batgirl operates yet (I honestly think she's the one that uses or needs Batman less). But still, independent enough. And operating with his own plans and methods, his own criteria. He usually choses when and how he involves himself or not. Or, well, he's meant to, I guess, by editorial, to be like that.

Jason has been going round in circles for years and nope it's not down to editorial since all titles are effected by editorial plans. Jason being a title that is pretty isolated is less victim to editorial interference.

The only reason he's connected to the batfam is because he's a legacy character inside the batfam. And obviously inherits much of the mythos and connections in that franchise. Again, as it happens with every other legacy character in the batman franchise, being them heroes like Barbara or Tim, or arguable villains-depending-on-the-day like Harley. You'll never get a clear cut, they're all always being to some degree connected and dependant of the main batman. Heck, the whole DC universe is, at this point dependant of the Batman. You only have to see that they've pushed him even in the GL books (what's next? Aquaman?). It's ridiculous. Jason? When Rebith started, he wasn't even under the same editorial "brand" than the other batbooks. Yet he has had to deal with the big events and editorial changes when the first half of this Rebirth run was about to happen, changing the original plans for the book. And then it happened 10 issues later again, changing again the plans for the book then; and then it happened 7 issues later again. This, we know by rumours and throwaway lines and stuff. It's ridiculous. And it happened during New 52 too, I think. It's not the only one who has suffered this problem, but you can't denny his book has suffered from it. It's not victimizing; it's what it is.

Also, I hate events, with passion.

Red Hood also isn't a corporate character like Robin or Batgirl so the direction the character takes is mostly down to the writer.

Nowhere I said he was. I know who are the big fishes in the editorial line, and Jason, despite being a favourite of not few people, he's relatively niche. Much like Deathstroke nowadays, but he has more fans than. let's see, Blue Beetle, one of my most liked. He's like Moon Knight in Marvel, but obviously with fewer history behind. Now, I want to ask, which character isn't subject to the whims of the new writer? Every one of them. Barbara herself is an example of how they can't decide what they want for her. And technically, Jason is a corporate owned character, as much as any of the others. Few of the characters from before the 90's are not, I think.

If you truly believe that Jason has an established cast for someone who has had the same writer for 10 years then I don't know what to say to you.

The only thing I can blame on editorial is Jason wearing the Jokers hood and the Bat brand. That inconsistency is on management and I can see the reason why.
The Bat brand is a value adding.

Almost as much an established cast as a character you know well, Damian, has during the same time (within 10 years I mean). Maybe more, because I would love to see some of the older ones again. More established and more in quantity than, again, Barbara has since Flashpoint (she has lost his old support cast, as far as I'm aware, or most of them). Honestly, I can't think of any character within DC with the same exposure that has gained many, but because I can lack of knowledge, I would like if someone could bring a few examples to the tab

The brands is just natural: he's a legacy character, he has clear ties to the bat brand, and it does pay saleswise. It's just logical and people identifies the red, angular bat with him (and the curvy one with Kate). I don't necessary like it, but I can see the logic behind it. The hood is just in his origin as a character at this point. It's like asking Venom to drop the white spider in his logo. It makes little sense and robs him of his roots. But he could try a new alias, that's something I would like to read. He needs a good reason to gain that new alias though: I hate when characters don't build a proper story behind their IDs.

[The Cheat]

My thoughts are the current line is uninspired and stale. With for the most part tired creators going through the motion with stale ideas. Most of the books feel like they are in holding patterns, buying time for something that now isn't going to come.

My thoughts also. I've been surprised how little I've missed new books these past few months.

[scary harpy]

It's time to grow and move on.

...

I also don't want Dick in leotards and bare legs.

Do Not Put Words In My Mouth...or in my post in this case.

Richard Grayson would neither have bare legs nor a leotard...but he would be Robin (for a little while).

Then he and others would form the Titans (NOT Teen Titans)...then he'd become Nightwing (sans the disco look).

I don't know if either Jason or Tim would become Robin...or if neither would become Robin. They might take on new names and new roles.

Jason may not die; Tim may gain powers; and etcetera. Fresh start; new universe with new rules!

[scary harpy]

My thoughts are the current line is uninspired and stale. With for the most part tired creators going through the motion with stale ideas. Most of the books feel like they are in holding patterns, buying time for something that now isn't going to come.

Well stated.

I love the characters...but I don't love the stories anymore.

[OBrianTallent]

The only book I would change anything on would be Nightwing. Williamson, Waid or Orlando for writing. Javier Sinclair, Samnee or Travis Moore for art. No Ric, no nightwingS.
Red Hood appears to be in need of a new writer. Any if the above three or Priest. I'm not sure about art direction. I would want the Outlaws to continue to be an integral part of the book tho.
The one book I would add is Birds of Prey with Gail Simone and Jamal Igle.

[Vakanai]

I'd narrow it down to only Bruce focused titles and drop the rest. Maybe after a few years bring back a Dick book. Another few years a Babs book. That'd be that. Not saying characters wouldn't exist, they just wouldn't have a book. An occasional mini or one shot or OGN if a writer pitches an idea.

[godisawesome]

I'd narrow it down to only Bruce focused titles and drop the rest. Maybe after a few years bring back a Dick book. Another few years a Babs book. That'd be that. Not saying characters wouldn't exist, they just wouldn't have a book. An occasional mini or one shot or OGN if a writer pitches an idea.

I was going to object when I read the first bit, then read the rest, and it reminded me of something that I think would genuinely work for much of DC.

I know you desire more refinement of the singular, broadest appealing part of the franchise and consistency, while I’m a guy who loves the expansion and genuinely would find certain spinoff books far more “must-buy” than even a great Batman run... but frankly, I think there is a strong way to please both of us, and use something similar to your proposal to allow for the refinement and focus that many characters desperately need:

Keep ‘Tec and Batman as total year round books... but have multiple other characters helm interspersed volumes/“seasons” akin to TV shows, to spread out the best writers and artists.

I’m already more interested in DC Universe and reruns of Robin, Nightwing, Red Robin, and Batgirl Vol. 1 & 2 than I am in the current books, and frankly, I wouldn’t be interested in hearing that DC would forever shy away from giving characters I love a book to call their own...

...But I think myself and others could gladly wait a few months in-between solid, high quality stories that still continue year after year.

Think about it like this: let’s say that you’ve got Gail Simone on Birds of Prey *and* Batgirl *and* Secret Six... but she writes BOP for three months, Batgirl for three months, then Secret Six for three months. Or you have Paul Dini writing a Damian series for six months, than a Catwoman books for six. Or Fabian Nicieza is writing both a Robins *and* Batgirls series, and they overlap at their starting and ending issues, but otherwise each get a break. Tyrion wants to write the Batfamily, but he can spread it out with different focuses and central characters.

Meanwhile, ‘Tec is a flexible timeline book capable of doing classic Batman stories before Dick, after Dick, before Babs, with Jason, with Tim, etc.

[Korath]

Harley Quinn is ending with #75 but there's supposed to be a new series. Or is the digital first "Harley Quinn: Make 'em Laugh" already the new series?
This is just me guessing without any proof but I wouldn't be surprised if there were some relaunches after Joker War. At least it would be a good time to do a relaunch - and sales are low currently.

Personally I'd like for a relaunch:
- more independence for characters
- less events/tie-ins
- more variety in the publication formats (monthly floppies, graphic novels, minis, limited series, seasons, etc.)
- character consistency (within a universe) over flashy stories
- if there's no writer who wants to write the character, the character gets shelved for the time being.

Titles that I'd personally like to see (not ordered by any priority) after the next relaunch:

Batwoman - the main focus is on Kate Kane. Other characters appearing are Renee and the rest of the Kane family (+ other supporting cast). Kate fights international terrorism and is specialized in occult/paranormal/spooky cases. Possible guest appearances: Birds of Prey, Justice League Dark (preferably Wonder Woman and Zatanna). Very minimal appearances of the batfamily (preferably none, not counting Barbara as part of Birds of Prey. Luke and Azrael are okay too).

Red Hood (and the Outlaws) - Jason is starting his new life in New York. He lives in Ma Gunn's school together with the other Outlaws (Bizarro and Artemis - Artemis is sometimes away on solo adventures), Generation Outlaw (Devour, Cloud Nine, DNA, Doomed, Caden, Mombie, Babe), Ma Gunn (his grandmother) + teachers (currently Monsieur Mallah and Brain), Pup Pup and Dog. Other supporting cast: Crux, Su sisters, fixer Tara Battleworth, All-Caste members (Ducra, S'aru, Essence), FBI-agent Melissa Mitchell, Wingman (Willis Todd), Faye Gunn Jr., Isabel Ardila. It's a mixture of solo missions and team-ups with his supporting cast. The school is his homebase. In his civil life he helps raising and teaching the kids who are currently in a dark place so that they won't end up were he did in the past. As Red Hood he's traveling all around the world infiltrating/taking down crime syndicates and occasionally encountering mystical threats. He takes jobs from Tara Battleworth to financially support his family and helps FBI-agent Melissa Mitchell with severe cases.
NO batfamily.
Plus points for Dexter Soy (lines), Veronica Gandini (colors) and Yasmine Putri (variants)

Signal (and the Immortal Men) - I want a book that focuses on Duke's heritage, his powers, Gnomon and the connection to the Immortal Men. I liked Tynion's Immortal Men, I think he could therefore also do good on Duke in this regard.

Cass and Stephanie - I pretty much just want a book with those two teaming-up.

This looks like perfection.

[Aahz]

I want definitely a more consist continuity between the books.

I find it annoying when Tusk is appearing in the current issue of Nightwing, even if he died in Gotham City Monsters a few month ago.

And Tim really needs a solo (maybe with Steph as co lead), to get him back on track.

And they really need to put a more experienced writers on the female lead books for a while, it is good to give new writers a chance, but these books had to many weak runs in the past years.

[OBrianTallent]

I want definitely a more consist continuity between the books.

I find it annoying when Tusk is appearing in the current issue of Nightwing, even if he died in Gotham City Monsters a few month ago.

And Tim really needs a solo (maybe with Steph as co lead), to get him back on track.

And they really need to put a more experienced writers on the female lead books for a while, it is good to give new writers a chance, but these books had to many weak runs in the past years.

Castelluci isnt doing a bad job if they would let her wrote her stories and back up on the unlimited crossovers.
I do agree Tim needs another solo, it's well past time. I'm definitely okay with Steph having a co-lead spot as well. I'm just not sure who I would want to write it.

[Sergard]

This looks like perfection.

Thank you. Those are the characters I'm the most interested in.


As others have said, a Tim Drake solo would be a nice change for the character. I'm neutral about Tim but a reversed Sherlock Holmes-Dr Watson concept could be interesting. The story would go like this: In order to investigate a case, Tim applies for an office job in a detective agency (pay is pretty crappy because the detective isn't really the best in his field). The detective is rather old-fashioned (for example no computer because computers can get hacked, etc.) and is neutral about the hero community, maybe even a little negative because people shouldn't rely on masked strangers in fancy costumes to always save the day. Everyone has to do their part and someone without hero identity can be as big of a hero as someone who runs around in a cape. In that story the detective interacts with Tim as normal citizen but also with Tim in his secret identity - which are two very contrasting relationships. Tim is able to solve the case but wants to keep a low profile. So at the end, it looks like the detective solved the case (thanks to Tim asking the right questions and secretly leading the investigation in the right direction).

And that's pretty much setting the stage for the frame story - Tim being the "secret detective" while playing the Dr. Watson part. I think some fun stories could be told with that concept and generally some more classic detective stories - like Tim trying to re-open a case that was labelled as accident or suicide without exposing who he really is. Or being confronted with a case, where magic is involved and Tim has to secretly delegate the investigation without exposing the magical component. Or a case where a super-villain pulls the strings by commanding his henchmen to commit crimes and Tim has to help with the investigation and fight the villain (in his secret identity). (And I'd definitely introduce some "Moriarty" character.)

This story doesn't need to be restricted to one city. The detective would have connections to detectives in other cities and even gain some prominence (thanks to Tim, but pay is still crappy).
There would also be guest appearances, mainly by Young Justice members or batfamily members (one person at a time). Sometimes they appear as civilians, sometimes in their secret identity - or in both those versions. Guest appearances would be chosen depending on the theme of the case, like a magic user for a case that involves magic, etc.

Regarding another character on the list in the OP, I have to say that Catwoman is in a weird place right now. I feel like a lot of people are just waiting for her to get pregnant and give birth to Helena. And then what? Will she be Catwoman again? But what will her Catwoman be about? Will she be reduced to a supporting character for Batman? Will there be a new Catwoman in town?

[Fergus]

Yes, he has. He has established himself as an independent anti-hero, much like Dick did before him, even more than Tim did by the end of the post-Crisis chronology, where he was pretty independent himself. Not to the same level Batgirl operates yet (I honestly think she's the one that uses or needs Batman less). But still, independent enough. And operating with his own plans and methods, his own criteria. He usually choses when and how he involves himself or not. Or, well, he's meant to, I guess, by editorial, to be like that.




The only reason he's connected to the batfam is because he's a legacy character inside the batfam. And obviously inherits much of the mythos and connections in that franchise. Again, as it happens with every other legacy character in the batman franchise, being them heroes like Barbara or Tim, or arguable villains-depending-on-the-day like Harley. You'll never get a clear cut, they're all always being to some degree connected and dependant of the main batman. Heck, the whole DC universe is, at this point dependant of the Batman. You only have to see that they've pushed him even in the GL books (what's next? Aquaman?). It's ridiculous. Jason? When Rebith started, he wasn't even under the same editorial "brand" than the other batbooks. Yet he has had to deal with the big events and editorial changes when the first half of this Rebirth run was about to happen, changing the original plans for the book. And then it happened 10 issues later again, changing again the plans for the book then; and then it happened 7 issues later again. This, we know by rumours and throwaway lines and stuff. It's ridiculous. And it happened during New 52 too, I think. It's not the only one who has suffered this problem, but you can't denny his book has suffered from it. It's not victimizing; it's what it is.

Also, I hate events, with passion.



Nowhere I said he was. I know who are the big fishes in the editorial line, and Jason, despite being a favourite of not few people, he's relatively niche. Much like Deathstroke nowadays, but he has more fans than. let's see, Blue Beetle, one of my most liked. He's like Moon Knight in Marvel, but obviously with fewer history behind. Now, I want to ask, which character isn't subject to the whims of the new writer? Every one of them. Barbara herself is an example of how they can't decide what they want for her. And technically, Jason is a corporate owned character, as much as any of the others. Few of the characters from before the 90's are not, I think.



Almost as much an established cast as a character you know well, Damian, has during the same time (within 10 years I mean). Maybe more, because I would love to see some of the older ones again. More established and more in quantity than, again, Barbara has since Flashpoint (she has lost his old support cast, as far as I'm aware, or most of them). Honestly, I can't think of any character within DC with the same exposure that has gained many, but because I can lack of knowledge, I would like if someone could bring a few examples to the tab

The brands is just natural: he's a legacy character, he has clear ties to the bat brand, and it does pay saleswise. It's just logical and people identifies the red, angular bat with him (and the curvy one with Kate). I don't necessary like it, but I can see the logic behind it. The hood is just in his origin as a character at this point. It's like asking Venom to drop the white spider in his logo. It makes little sense and robs him of his roots. But he could try a new alias, that's something I would like to read. He needs a good reason to gain that new alias though: I hate when characters don't build a proper story behind their IDs.

A corporate character is a character that's decide by committee and not born organically. It has nothing to do with success or popularity.

Robin being a corporate character means that writers and creatives are forced to include them in stuff and higher ups have more input in the direction they go and how their story unfolds

[Godlike13]

I’d have Tim take over for Alfred, if not him then Harper. All the ex-Robins having solos breeds redundancy. The ex Robins are similar characters that do similar things. Them all having solo’s doesn’t make for diverse original books.