Thoughts on the current Batfamily line? Things you like? Things you’d change?

[godisawesome]

Red Robin has barely got any mileage out of his civilian life. The Red Robin book used a poorly conceived search for Bruce to drive it. Detective comics was the first time in a long time we saw semblances of him maybe having a civilian life again, but it ultimately went nowhere. Tim Drake going to school, free of being Robin and not having to answer to anyone, just isn’t a particularly interesting situation any more.
Tim is not very original of a character. Much of what they can do with him, they can do with others and quite frankly are doing with others. And it’s not just Tim. There is redundancy within the Batfamily and so they often step on each other toes. Series for every one just spreads this problem out. Every one thinks that if they just bring back books that had cult runs with good writers, and they could maybe recapture what use to be. Though as we are seeing with Young Justice that isn’t necessarily the case.

Red Robin’s comic moved past the search for Bruce after the intial arc, and most definitely embraced Tim’s civilian life for the bulk of its run as a solo comic.

And I disagree with disparaging character concepts in the Bat-Family... largely because it’s an excercise in double standards and biases from everyone. I mean, Tim’s “just” as much an unoriginal character as Jason is... but both characters prospered in days and ages where they were given books and runs with support from editorial when other characters weren’t and had creators figure out their individual formulas. There are plenty of things both character do that could, in theory be done with other characters... but the failure of such attempts at times puts the lie to that theory on practice. “Ric” Grayson was an attempt to make Nightwing act more like Red Hood. It failed. New 52 Teen Titans desperately wanted Tim to be Dick. It didn’t work. DC Pre-Flashpoint kept on trying to make Jason fit in an AzBat-style “evil Batman” role, even with Morrison’s Red Hood repackaging. You don’t see anyone howling for that to come back.

Jason’s “just” a 90’s throwback action hero, in the same way Damian’s “just” a Mary Sue, in the same way that Babs is Batgirl “just” because she was in the 60’s Tv show, in the same way Tim’s “just” a Spider-man-as-a-Batman character, etc...

None of that’s actually true. These characters are ridiculously successful in the right hands. And all of them have had the wrong hands applied as well... and yet as comic properties, many of them would be judged as more valuable than some of the Justice League characters.

As to the redundancy factor... I actually think the Bat books have largely disproved that notion whenever they’ve had multiple characters heading series, while most of the times that they’ve been denied that opportunity, it wasn’t because of any failing on a book’s part - it was editorial chasing a dubious marketing theory that usually didn't pan out. Robin, Red Hood, and Nightwing have all generally run alongside one or the other, in spite of being largely the same concept of an “autonomous sidekick spin-off” - and it’s not like Dc shied away from having Damian headline books as well doing those times. Batgirl and Batwoman weren’t eating into each other’s sales - Batwoman’s fall was precipitated by editorial shooting itself in the foot by cancelling a marriage.

Which ties into this thing:

Why should Bruce lose his Detective book to other family members? They can't sustain their own books so Bruce has to give up his spot or move aside to make room for them? This is what I always notice, family fans hating/criticizing Batman for any and everything while also wanting the family to benefit from Batman's popularity. Let the family have their own books and let them sink or swim on their own merits. Don't look to Batman to prop them up especially when he's being criticized for all the family's problems. Detective is Bruce's book, not a dumping ground for others who cannot carry their own.

Because one character doesn't need multiple solos. One is enough, and as I said, I'm less inclined to buy Detective if it just stars Batman because there's already a solo for Batman, and if the main story is in Batman, why should I buy Detective if most of the time it doesn't affect the main story and starring the same character? Unnecessary. If we have different characters in the title, then I'm more interested in buying it because it will have different stories and dynamics.

This has nothing to do with blaming Batman and more about being as effective as possible. Also, nobody's asking the writers to write a jerk Batman or a family that blames Batman. They can choose to write a more functional team and family, they just chose not to.

Very rarely has a once-successful Bat-family spin-off been cancelled just because the character couldn’t “sustain their own book,” but especially regarding the common suspects here.

Cass’s book was cancelled because editorial didn’t think the fanbase was ready for two Bat-female books with Batwoman’s appearance intended to arrive (which ironically got delayed). Tim’s book got cancelled because they wanted to try fusing his fanbase to their New 52 Teen Titans book, which they were so dead-set on trying to make work they wound up restarting it without any major changes. Steph’s book also got axed by the New 52, and while her monthly sales were low, her TPB sales were disproportionately strong and something DC hoped to replicate elsewhere; her series ended more because editorial again didn’t think that Babs would sell if Steph was admitted to exist.

There’s also been times where sales had the floor dropped underneath them, or where support never really became as strong as hoped for, but editorial/other creators’ faith in the concept lead to long runs and relaunches.

Catwoman’s 90’s series tanked for a while after NML... and then they took the character off the shelf for a while, repackaged her with Brubaker and Cooke, and printed money. Nightwing was in a dark spot around the War Games/Infinite Crisis spot, and Didio wanted him dead... and then Johns and others rebelled, soared him, and a few years later he was a successful Batman. Red Hood has never really been anywhere near the producer that Nightwing or a Robin are... but DC editorial smartly realized he had a reliably dedicated fanbase and that he was the one character Scott Lobdell seemed to not drive people away from as a headliner, and just repacked the book multiple times.

The Bat-Family characters aren’t liabilities to each other; they’re assets.

There need to be less infighting and fear of “redundancy” and more an embracing of the large cast. It’s not like it’s stopped Batman from having solo adventures.

[Godlike13]

Have you looked at Nightwing or Red Hood sales. These books are struggling to even stay in the top 100. And that's nothing new for Red Hood. The last couple years have been a demonstration on why these books maybe don't need to exist, and maybe even shouldn't. Those books exist to give those creator something to do, not cause they are particularly successful or going anywhere with their characters. They are arguably doing more harm then good even.
They have proven to be struggling to keep the few books they have intresting and compelling. So the idea that that they just need to do even more of them seems rather naive.

[godisawesome]

Have you looked as Nightwing or Red Hood sales. These books are struggling to even stay in the top 100. And that's nothing new for Red Hood. The last couple years have been a demonstration on why these books maybe don't need to exist, and maybe even shouldn't. Those books exist to give those creator something to do, not cause they are particularly successful or going anywhere with their characters. They are arguably doing more harm then good even.
They have proven to be struggling to keep the few books they have intresting and compelling. So the idea that that they just need to do even more of them seems rather naive.

How much of the current struggles at DC are the result of just general chaos at DC, or mistakes that can likely be eased or forgotten with the right creative team?

[Aahz]

Why does anyone need a glimpse at Tim's daily life? It was interesting back when he was Robin and he was juggling Normal life and heroics. He hasn't done that in for ever so what's the argument for seeing Tim's life over Damian, Cass, Dick or anyone else.

Because it was allways a big part of his stories and without it something is missing.
A lot of the other (Cass, Damian, Jason ...) don't really have a normal life and normal parents.
And on top of that the teen drama niche is not really covered by any of the other Batman books at the moment.

The big problem with Tim is that due to all the reboots it is at moment comply unclear what is canon at what isn't, I mean are is parents still alive and in witness protection, or are they dead again?

[Adset]

I’m enjoying both Batman and ‘Tec. I don’t think either is redefining the character or producing an all-time run, but I find them to be pleasantly solid month in, month out. I suppose I’ve lived through enough *bad* arcs where I can appreciate good-but-not-great stuff.

Aside from those 3-4 issues of Mark Russell’s digital first $0.99, I haven’t bought another Bat-book since Seely left Nightwing. The line just doesn’t interest me much these days. I was a big fan of many of the satellite books in the 90s/early 00s, but I’m just not feeling them currently.

[Aahz]

Tim's Robin title sold high in the 90s but starting to lower to 30-20,000 in the 2000s so just because he's a high seller then doesn't mean he's going to be now, especially with his solo being absent for almost a decade. Same with Cass. She's a high seller in the 2000s but who knows now.

Maybe, but I think now there is still a chance for a solo book with him to generate decent sales, but that's gone if they don't so something soon with him.

[Aahz]

Red Hood has never really been anywhere near the producer that Nightwing or a Robin are...

He is popular enough that putting him a story generates a lot of attention, unfortunately how he is handled in those stories is often disappointing.

I'm still hoping that Three Jokers might finally do him some justice.

[CPSparkles]

Because it was allways a big part of his stories and without it something is missing.
A lot of the other (Cass, Damian, Jason ...) don't really have a normal life and normal parents.
And on top of that the teen drama niche is not really covered by any of the other Batman books at the moment.

The big problem with Tim is that due to all the reboots it is at moment comply unclear what is canon at what isn't, I mean are is parents still alive and in witness protection, or are they dead again?

I get what you mean and I enjoyed that about his Robin series but Tim for the longest time doesn't feel like he has another life outside of heroics. His parents dead or alive doesn't matter since he is under Bruce's care and from what we saw in Rebirth Tec he doesn't really have that part of his life anymore.

Duke we got a glimpse but what we got wasn't enough. I have so much more I'm curious about. I also like how Outsiders is developing his relationship with Cass. That's something I'd like to see get more panel space and we can see that if we saw more of his down time.

I also wouldn't mind catching up on his pals from his mini.

[9th.]

Because one character doesn't need multiple solos. One is enough, and as I said, I'm less inclined to buy Detective if it just stars Batman because there's already a solo for Batman, and if the main story is in Batman, why should I buy Detective if most of the time it doesn't affect the main story and starring the same character? Unnecessary. If we have different characters in the title, then I'm more interested in buying it because it will have different stories and dynamics.

This has nothing to do with blaming Batman and more about being as effective as possible. Also, nobody's asking the writers to write a jerk Batman or a family that blames Batman. They can choose to write a more functional team and family, they just chose not to.

Even if Bruce did lose Detective comics there's still a million Batman books a year anyway they just aren't in "canon" whatever that is now.

[Restingvoice]

Very rarely has a once-successful Bat-family spin-off been cancelled just because the character couldn’t “sustain their own book,” but especially regarding the common suspects here.

Cass’s book was cancelled because editorial didn’t think the fanbase was ready for two Bat-female books with Batwoman’s appearance intended to arrive (which ironically got delayed).

Tim’s book got cancelled because they wanted to try fusing his fanbase to their New 52 Teen Titans book, which they were so dead-set on trying to make work they wound up restarting it without any major changes.

Steph’s book also got axed by the New 52, and while her monthly sales were low, her TPB sales were disproportionately strong and something DC hoped to replicate elsewhere; her series ended more because editorial again didn’t think that Babs would sell if Steph was admitted to exist.

There’s also been times where sales had the floor dropped underneath them, or where support never really became as strong as hoped for, but editorial/other creators’ faith in the concept lead to long runs and relaunches.

Catwoman’s 90’s series tanked for a while after NML... and then they took the character off the shelf for a while, repackaged her with Brubaker and Cooke, and printed money.

Nightwing was in a dark spot around the War Games/Infinite Crisis spot, and Didio wanted him dead... and then Johns and others rebelled, soared him, and a few years later he was a successful Batman.

Red Hood has never really been anywhere near the producer that Nightwing or a Robin are... but DC editorial smartly realized he had a reliably dedicated fanbase and that he was the one character Scott Lobdell seemed to not drive people away from as a headliner, and just repacked the book multiple times.

Thank you for the info!

So first of all, they screwed up on New 52 Tim when they assigned writer and editorial who think they can just mess a proven character with a new concept nobody asks for, but that already passed.

Steph's book, if it's stronger in TPB than single issues, shows what her reader prefers, assuming they didn't come in late, and therefore my suggestion if she has a solo, is to skip a single issue and go straight to graphic novels.

That said, if this is a case of readership coming in late, then what they need to do is to build up that fanbase once again. Make her appear more in any book, advertise it, and once you got that build-up, launch her solo if you're confident.

Have you looked at Nightwing or Red Hood sales. These books are struggling to even stay in the top 100. And that's nothing new for Red Hood. The last couple years have been a demonstration on why these books maybe don't need to exist, and maybe even shouldn't. Those books exist to give those creator something to do, not cause they are particularly successful or going anywhere with their characters. They are arguably doing more harm then good even.
They have proven to be struggling to keep the few books they have intresting and compelling. So the idea that that they just need to do even more of them seems rather naive.

The fans would like these books to exist, but the need will depend on the publisher, do they give them profit or not. In the case of Red Hood is below 20,000 justify the effort to keep it existing? This one I don't know, and I still have no suggestion for Red Hood just yet, so I'm still putting this in the backburner.

Maybe, but I think now there is still a chance for a solo book with him to generate decent sales, but that's gone if they don't do something soon with him.

Agreed. The New 52 portrayal soured a lot of old fans, but from Detective to YJ they've been building him up again. I don't know if it's enough though, people been saying that YJ number is not high enough for such a high profile series. Detective sold high, but it also has Batman, so it's not a good measure for a solo relaunch.

If I'm DC owner I like to play it safe and wait until YJ number is satisfactory, and keep making Tim appear in the bat books, rebuild that buyer, before relaunching their solo.

If people are already interested in the characters of YJ but the story or characterization is unsatisfactory, then I'm gonna replace the writer and try a different concept in that book until the numbers are high enough for me to say, okay, let's try a solo now.

[9th.]

I wanna see how a 'Batgirls' book would do. I just really love that idea.

[gregpersons]

I wanna see how a 'Batgirls' book would do. I just really love that idea.

Yeah I feel like the fandom collectively has been voicing for "Team" books from the Batfamily, and it's just never been properly done. All of the Robins on a team, and all of the Batgirls on a team. Same team, different divisions.

Batman Inc was the right idea. You can have countless Bat allies, it just needs to have some structure and purpose and direction.

[godisawesome]

Yeah I feel like the fandom collectively has been voicing for "Team" books from the Batfamily, and it's just never been properly done. All of the Robins on a team, and all of the Batgirls on a team. Same team, different divisions.

Batman Inc was the right idea. You can have countless Bat allies, it just needs to have some structure and purpose and direction.

‘TEC Rebirth actually seemed to overall be a pretty strong success because it dares to feature a team of Bat-family characters, even if Tyrion fumbled a bit with Tim and Steph, ironically. Turns out that managing an adequate-to-good Batwoman interacting with an adequate-to-good Cass, an adequate-to-good Azrael, and adequate-to-good Batwing, and a heroic Clayface was a good recipe for success.

A Gotham Knights book of some kind seems like to should be more likely to succeed than not.

[Aahz]

His parents dead or alive doesn't matter since he is under Bruce's care and from what we saw in Rebirth Tec he doesn't really have that part of his life anymore.

But I think you could quite easily put that back in place, it is not like Tim has really lived in the manor since the new 52, and them apparently bringing pre flashpoint stuff back it is anyway hard to say what is and what isn't continuity.

Btw. that another thing his relations with the other members of the Batfamily has also not really been explored since Flashpoint. He had barely any longer interaction with anyone apart from Jason, Steph and maybe Harper Row.
He is overdue for team ups with Dick, Barbara, Cass, Duke, Damian and imo even Bruce.

Duke we got a glimpse but what we got wasn't enough. I have so much more I'm curious about. I also like how Outsiders is developing his relationship with Cass. That's something I'd like to see get more panel space and we can see that if we saw more of his down time.

But Dukes parents are still Jokerized, and the stuff with Gnomon suggested iirc that at least his mother is also not normal and honestly I thin Tim has still a bigger chance to actually keep a book going.

[gregpersons]

‘TEC Rebirth actually seemed to overall be a pretty strong success because it dares to feature a team of Bat-family characters, even if Tyrion fumbled a bit with Tim and Steph, ironically. Turns out that managing an adequate-to-good Batwoman interacting with an adequate-to-good Cass, an adequate-to-good Azrael, and adequate-to-good Batwing, and a heroic Clayface was a good recipe for success.

A Gotham Knights book of some kind seems like to should be more likely to succeed than not.

100%. These Batfamily loner characters are always more interesting together, whether the characters like it or not. Separately, they're all very similar and derivative. Together, they're forced to carve out unique identities. And then stories get interesting because the characters are more interesting!