Thoughts on the current Batfamily line? Things you like? Things you’d change?

[ChangingStation]

Having re-read Batman Eternal, I feel it actually only suffered two problems - attempting to tell one long story over a year that didn’t as well as some of the subplots in comparison, and struggling a bit at getting Harper over while reintroducing Steph and Cass. The Jason Bard story, Catwoman’s becoming Queenpin, Gordon being sent to prison, stuff like that actually works as good hooks and subplot that could be undone later but we’re still interesting in the short term. Eternal started grinding to a halt once they tried moving more towards their ending.

B&R: Eternal was arguably worse because they tried removing the “filler” of subplots... which meant they just had filler in the main plot.

Batman Eternal only reintroduced Steph. B&R Eternal was the one with Cass. And while Steph's reintroduction worked (to a point), once her story met up with Harper, I would agree it started to break down.

B&R 's main problem was that Dick was the only actual Robin used as a main character. The rest were downplayed in favour of Harper's story.

[Aahz]

Problem with the Eternals was imo also that we didn't get much of the core Batfamily working together (which was what at least I wanted to see), they were all quickly split in different subplots and then had even in some cases take back seat so that some guest character could get the spot light.

[Restingvoice]

Having re-read Batman Eternal, I feel it actually only suffered two problems - attempting to tell one long story over a year that didn’t as well as some of the subplots in comparison, and struggling a bit at getting Harper over while reintroducing Steph and Cass. The Jason Bard story, Catwoman’s becoming Queenpin, Gordon being sent to prison, stuff like that actually works as good hooks and subplot that could be undone later but we’re still interesting in the short term. Eternal started grinding to a halt once they tried moving more towards their ending.

B&R: Eternal was arguably worse because they tried removing the “filler” of subplots... which meant they just had filler in the main plot.

XD Wait, what was the filler in the BRE main plot again?

[godisawesome]

XD Wait, what was the filler in the BRE main plot again?

...Most of the main plot.

I’m sort of kidding, but sort of not; from what I recall, BE had a lot of sub-adversaries and red herring bosses, or side-stories that could at time she genuinely interesting, and were only connected to the story because Owlman and Cluemaster called them in as distractions and opportunistic allies. That was part of the reason BE’s overarching plot kind of failed - Owlman’s arrival was a last minute thing, and once they started bringing everything together, a lot of the plotlines got kind fo dumb.

In contrast, B&RE established Mother as the villain early on, and was mostly a year long investigation and hunting down of Mother... which didn’t quite work, as Mother was kind of bland.

[millernumber1]

...Most of the main plot.

I’m sort of kidding, but sort of not; from what I recall, BE had a lot of sub-adversaries and red herring bosses, or side-stories that could at time she genuinely interesting, and were only connected to the story because Owlman and Cluemaster called them in as distractions and opportunistic allies. That was part of the reason BE’s overarching plot kind of failed - Owlman’s arrival was a last minute thing, and once they started bringing everything together, a lot of the plotlines got kind fo dumb.

In contrast, B&RE established Mother as the villain early on, and was mostly a year long investigation and hunting down of Mother... which didn’t quite work, as Mother was kind of bland.

I mean, you're not too wrong. BRE's narrative was split between the Dick Grayson Robin story in the flashbacks, and the current day. So it did have subplots. And it never had the "who is the big bad" plotline that BE had.

I know all the flaws of Batman Eternal - but I think if you look it as more a year spent with a huge group of heroes and villains after Death of the Family tore the heroes apart, and bringing back a lot of characters (not just Steph - Vicki Vale, Jason Bard, Hush, etc) who had been neglected by the Bat-books for 2-3 years - it's a lot more fun.

At least, that's how I still see it.

[ChangingStation]

...Most of the main plot.

I’m sort of kidding, but sort of not; from what I recall, BE had a lot of sub-adversaries and red herring bosses, or side-stories that could at time she genuinely interesting, and were only connected to the story because Owlman and Cluemaster called them in as distractions and opportunistic allies. That was part of the reason BE’s overarching plot kind of failed - Owlman’s arrival was a last minute thing, and once they started bringing everything together, a lot of the plotlines got kind fo dumb.

In contrast, B&RE established Mother as the villain early on, and was mostly a year long investigation and hunting down of Mother... which didn’t quite work, as Mother was kind of bland.

Yeah, I do feel that Owlman felt tacked on, Cluemaster was the more engaging of the two villains, because he at least had a reasonable connection to the stories going on.

Mother was basically meh, since she had no real need to exist with Cain having been known to have been a teacher.

[Godlike13]

B&RE was pointless. Like they did it cause they did the first Eternal, but had no real substance behind it to really drive doing it. Let bring Cass back, so we can then have her do nothing. Lets really introduce Harper to readers, so we can have her ride off into the sunset by the end. And as to the matter of how either fit in regards to Batman and Robin, eh well just force that square peg in that round hole. B&RE was an expensive waste of time that accomplished nothing but undermined Batman and Robin for the sake of characters that were going nowhere. There was no forward thinking put into it. It was almost like its was trapped between what it wanted to sell and what it had to sell.

[Aahz]

I know all the flaws of Batman Eternal - but I think if you look it as more a year spent with a huge group of heroes and villains after Death of the Family tore the heroes apart, and bringing back a lot of characters (not just Steph - Vicki Vale, Jason Bard, Hush, etc) who had been neglected by the Bat-books for 2-3 years - it's a lot more fun.

I still think they should first concentrated on the Batfamily members they allready had, and brought maybe only one new addition (back) to Batfamily.
I don't think that minor characters and villains like Vicki Vale, Jason Bard and Hush were a problem, but adding Harper, Steph and Julia while setting up new a new direction for Catwoman and starting Gotham by Midnight and Arkham Manor was to much.

[ChangingStation]

I still think they should first concentrated on the Batfamily members they allready had, and brought maybe only one new addition (back) to Batfamily.
I don't think that minor characters and villains like Vicki Vale, Jason Bard and Hush were a problem, but adding Harper, Steph and Julia while setting up new a new direction for Catwoman and starting Gotham by Midnight and Arkham Manor was to much.

Yeah, Eternal should have introduced one new character, and given how the story was written, Steph probably should have been that character. But was Vicki Vale reintroduced in it?

[godisawesome]

Yeah, Eternal should have introduced one new character, and given how the story was written, Steph probably should have been that character. But was Vicki Vale reintroduced in it?

I don’t remember Vicki, but I was going to speak up in defense of Julia and Bard, considering they were both rebooted New 52 versions, and I’d argue they both fit in better because they show some of the advantages of group projects like Eternal that resemble the O’Neil era - they were briskly reintroduced, fleshed out, and quickly integrated into the story without stealing the spotlight from anyone.

The clash with Harper and Steph still strikes me as being a by-product of Harper having been conceived as a Steph-style substitute who unfortunately just wound up getting her story going at the same time the varsity version of her was being reintroduced, causing them to kind fo cancel each other out a bit.

[Frontier]

My main issue with B&RE was that I just felt it failed at what it was trying to do, which was celebrate the Robin identity. The anniversary special did it far better in several sets of stories then the entirety of B&RE in my opinion.

[Aahz]

I don’t remember Vicki, but I was going to speak up in defense of Julia and Bard, considering they were both rebooted New 52 versions, and I’d argue they both fit in better because they show some of the advantages of group projects like Eternal that resemble the O’Neil era - they were briskly reintroduced, fleshed out, and quickly integrated into the story without stealing the spotlight from anyone.

Vicki appeared before in Batman.

I have to disagree with Julia and Bard.

In Bards case it was imo a pretty bad take on the character, and Julias part in the story could have easily gone to on of the core members (who got all a pretty bad treatment in this series). And the addition of Julia has sofar proven to be pretty pointless. She has hardly been used after rebirth and they didn't even include her in B&RE.

[Restingvoice]

Vicki appeared before in Batman.

I have to disagree with Julia and Bard.

In Bards case it was imo a pretty bad take on the character, and Julias part in the story could have easily gone to on of the core members (who got all a pretty bad treatment in this series). And the addition of Julia has sofar proven to be pretty pointless. She has hardly been used after rebirth and they didn't even include her in B&RE.

Julia's kinda sorta went missing for the whole Superheavy yearlong arc, wasn't she? Guess they really don't know what to do with her until Rebirth Batwoman.

I wonder if it has something to do with them trying to sell Alfred as Batman/Bruce's dad to the point of obsession, that it will look extra bad if Julia's there since it will look like he's neglecting her daughter again if he's too focused on Bruce.

[Aahz]

Julia's kinda sorta went missing for the whole Superheavy yearlong arc, wasn't she?

I think she worked at the GCPD as Support für Gordon's Batman, but she didn't do much.

[Tsukiakari1203]

I just want Bette Kane back as Flamebird. Alas, DC treats her like crap.