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  1. #16
    Mighty Member Godzilla2099's Avatar
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    Sorry, not sure I understand this question. Are we talking about how he could have been written better?

    Currently, poor Kylo Ren doesn't have room for much potential.

    The previews and the first few minutes of the movie he appeared in the fans were intrigued
    When he took off his mask I heard a few people snickering
    Poe and Rey making fun of him didn't help his case
    When he yelled "Traitor" at Finn, the entire theater was laughing

    Kylo Ren didn't exactly leave a similar footprint that Vader or the Alien Queen did

    My co-worker took his family to Disney World. When "Kylo Ren" appeared, my friend heard a dad say along the lines of, "Don't worry son, this guy never won a fight" and everybody in the ride was laughing

    Overall, he was the village idiot of the Star Wars Villains

    Poor Skywalkers. They really deserved better.

    If we're talking about how he should have been written, then yes he had extreme potential. Ren's Costume looked very similar to Revan's. Disney should have also stolen some of Revan's Story and applied it to Ren's.

    My point is give this guy an actual story. For example, Ben Solo became weary of the fighting between the empire and rebels. He was excelling/getting bored with Jedi Training ,wanted more power, and became fascinated with his grandfather. So he joins the First Order to bring order to the galaxy. In his mind, he thought Grandpa had the right ideas but he went about it the wrong way. There are certain lines he won't cross

    Luke...its ok to be bummed out. But he needed to get back up. I'd have him a wandering nomad. He encounters a village about to be crushed by an avalanche. Before he could act, the village elders stopped it using the force. It turns out those elders were the children at the Jedi Temple Vader supposedly killed. (Sorry, I never bought that scene Anakin would do that). Turns out Anakin told those kids, leave and never use the force or else. Those villagers believed him. This gives Luke the spark of hope he needed and goes to save Ben

    Ben is saved but unfortunately Luke or Leia passes away doing it. Its the perfect way for one of them to go. This leaves Ben's Story an open book for a new chapter.
    Last edited by Godzilla2099; 06-26-2020 at 08:00 AM.

  2. #17
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla2099 View Post
    Sorry, not sure I understand this question. Are we talking about how he could have been written better?

    Currently, poor Kylo Ren doesn't have room for much potential.
    Yeah. JJ Abrams shotgunned the character into too many slots in The Force Awakens. He came up with the idea of "Darth Vader fanboy", "Anakin's grandson", and then had him go "kill Han Solo". Abrams also cast Adam Driver which was the single great thing he did, but Driver didn't have much to do with what Abrams give him except so he went for a very emotional performance that somehow worked and struck a chord with everyone.

    Rian Johnson tried to do more with Ben but then JJ came back and he reset the story and character back to The Force Awakens.

    Short of Kylo Ren/Ben Solo being the actual main character of the sequel trilogy (which he is not, certainly not by the end of TROS) there was nothing that could have been done with him.

  3. #18
    Mighty Member Godzilla2099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Yeah. JJ Abrams shotgunned the character into too many slots in The Force Awakens. He came up with the idea of "Darth Vader fanboy", "Anakin's grandson", and then had him go "kill Han Solo". Abrams also cast Adam Driver which was the single great thing he did, but Driver didn't have much to do with what Abrams give him except so he went for a very emotional performance that somehow worked and struck a chord with everyone.

    Rian Johnson tried to do more with Ben but then JJ came back and he reset the story and character back to The Force Awakens.

    Short of Kylo Ren/Ben Solo being the actual main character of the sequel trilogy (which he is not, certainly not by the end of TROS) there was nothing that could have been done with him.
    I'm still shocked Star Trek 09 and The Force Awakens were written by the same guy. But Abrams didn't have Kathleen Kennedy contaminating Star Trek.

    Star Trek had a scary villain. Nero's Ship and first appearance left an impression.

    Star Trek you felt the desperation and the near hopelessness of the situation. It had more of a impact when Vulcan was destroyed. Pike being captured and most Star Trek Fans knew his fate was a sad ending. Nero's Motives were simple but it was more than enough to explain anybody watching the film why he was acting the way he was. When the movie ended, everybody dashed to the bathrooms because they didn't want to miss anything important.

    The Force Awakens may have left an impression, but not for the right reasons.

    Kylo Ren, like much of this trilogy was a mess. No real direction. Nobody really cared or could grasp what this trilogy was even about. "Oh, they have a Death Star the size of a planet now, we have 15 minutes to destroy it and no real plan" Everything was so casual. A New Hope, you saw and felt the desperation of those Rebels during the Battle of Yavin. Rey's "Capture" and "interrogation' was a joke. The first order even destroyed 3 planets. Nobody really batted an eye. The villain was a laughing stock. Even Lord Helmet from Space Balls did a better job
    Last edited by Godzilla2099; 06-26-2020 at 08:52 AM.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Yeah. JJ Abrams shotgunned the character into too many slots in The Force Awakens. He came up with the idea of "Darth Vader fanboy", "Anakin's grandson", and then had him go "kill Han Solo". Abrams also cast Adam Driver which was the single great thing he did, but Driver didn't have much to do with what Abrams give him except so he went for a very emotional performance that somehow worked and struck a chord with everyone.

    Rian Johnson tried to do more with Ben but then JJ came back and he reset the story and character back to The Force Awakens.

    Short of Kylo Ren/Ben Solo being the actual main character of the sequel trilogy (which he is not, certainly not by the end of TROS) there was nothing that could have been done with him.
    I’m of the opposite opinion: Abrams set-up Kylo as a loathsomely evil *villain* who perfectly foiled the main characters, Rey and Finn.

    He’s an entitled prick from a life of privilege compared to their genuinely downtrodden and traumatic childhoods, with some fanatical and self-centered delusions and mad beliefs. Killing Han Solo fits the same paradigm and vile actions that the character does throughout the movie - his ordering the village killed in an act of mass murder, killing Lor San Tekka for bringing up his heroic parents, violating Rey's mind in a scene coded similar to sexual assault, and projecting his own treacherous nature on Finn before sadistically toying with him and maiming him. Driver got plenty out of the role - he was playing a monster who briefly seems to be maybe something more, before revealing he’s actually something worse.

    Driver in TFA is playing an evil, twisted, prick who’s a supporting character and antagonist to Rey and Finn. He’s an immature villain Both in terms of personality and power, but that’s because he’s *explicitly* supposed to mature and grow as a villain on the next film.

    All Rian Johnson did was take that prick and then insist he was sympathetic somehow... largely because of who his parents were - and that was pretty much it.

    NOW!...

    ...If that sounds like an inaccurate assessment of Ben Soloto you... that’s kind of the point. It’s an assessment of Kylo Ren - the character Adam Driver was hired to play and was playing for 90% of his screentime. Ben Solo was a hypothetical character Driver could hav been playing, and one that I think Lucasfilm was considerably more enamored with and excited for, rather than the character they had.

    If what you want is Kylo Ren as a badguy, only TFA really approached it - even as it wanted him to develop later.

    If what you wanted was Ben Solo as a male lead and protagonist, then you’re simpatico with what Johnson and LFL wanted - but that character never really existed in TLJ, and was mostly just the wrong perspective to have of Kylo after TFA, especially when TLJ didn’t do a damn thing to actually develop him in that way.

    I mean, Ben Solo’s the least developed, least complex, most shallow, and least sympathetic “heroic” character in the Saga, coasting almost entirely on his heritage and his overqualified and underserved actor. Seriously, Driver with three movies got to show less of his skill and range than John Boyega did in just The Force Awakens.

    And if you’re feeling is that Ben Solo *should* have been the main character because of who his parents are... then what that really says to me is that Rey should have just been a Skywalker, and Boyega shouldn’t have even demoted from her main companion, because that seems to be the only things in terms of substance that Ben has over those two characters.
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  5. #20
    Astonishing Member Starter Set's Avatar
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    Kilo lived up to exactly how much potential he had as a character : none.

    A whinny, weak minded, man-child with no clear goals beside a creepy obssession for the main female character is not good material for a strong vilain.

    And you can't redeem someone who killed one of his parent just to prove himself that he's evil enough to be Snoke's bitch.

  6. #21
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    A whinny, weak minded, man-child with no clear goals beside a creepy obssession for the main female character is not good material for a strong vilain.
    I'd agree with that, and based on that and the first movie alone, I thought it worked wonders.
    Kylo to me seems very much like the prequels Anakin pretending to be Darth Vader. (Yes, I know those are technically the same people, but there's very little similarity in how they act.)

    He was a whiny, weak, easily entitled brat pretending to be some dark imposing force.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    I'd agree with that, and based on that and the first movie alone, I thought it worked wonders.
    Kylo to me seems very much like the prequels Anakin pretending to be Darth Vader. (Yes, I know those are technically the same people, but there's very little similarity in how they act.)

    He was a whiny, weak, easily entitled brat pretending to be some dark imposing force.
    And I think that’s a useful villain to have occasionally.

    And honestly? A Neo-Nazi school shooter and “mind-molester” who commits patricide out of insecurity at his weakness, and who’s still dangerous enough to cause destruction even if he’s not a “dark imposing force?”

    Tha feels like the perfect villain for the Trump era. He’s Stephen Miller with better hair.

    ...But that also meant that he was an absolutely wretched candidate for male portagonist, which is what LFL wanted him to be in the last two movies.

    Adam Driver has a killer lip-wobble game. But all the wobbling lips in the world can’t make a $#!+-stain sympathetic all by its lonesome.
    Last edited by godisawesome; 07-25-2020 at 03:39 PM.
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    I think Kylo Ren was a good concept for a villain that started strong, had a good second act, and then the Powers That Me botched up at the very end. Maybe later as we get used to the story being what it is, things will work better, I don't think he lived up to it in the end, which is sad given how good the set up was.

    All that said, Adam Driver did well in the role. Even the bad parts had him delivering as an actor.
    I think his character was being strong in the earlier parts, but near the end I think his character was kind of lame. The actor probably did ok. If it wasn't Adam Driver, who do you think would be a good choice for the role?

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ash2020 View Post
    I think his character was being strong in the earlier parts, but near the end I think his character was kind of lame. The actor probably did ok. If it wasn't Adam Driver, who do you think would be a good choice for the role?
    I still think that Driver’s best performance was in TFA, because that had the best writing for the character, and oddly enough, required a greater degree of Driver’s range and skill than the other two films. His body language and vocal work while masked is still something special, communicating the character’s petulance and viciousness even though you couldn’t see his face most of the time. And TFA has the interrogation scene with Rey, his confrontation with Han, and his breakdown in the woods, all done without his mask, has more vibrancy and characterization than the other films.

    To be blunt, I kind of think a moderately skilled pretty boy could have played Kylo in the their two films with little difficulty. In TLJ, Kylo’s characterization is mostly “angsty brooding”... and that’s about it. There’s not nearly as much range in that film for Driver to show - what Driver brought in was nuance and an ability to give a subdued but intense performance, which another actor could substitute with a more effusive if less subtle performance. And TROS is basically more of the same, with a bit towards the end of Ben Solo, but I still don’t think it was that strenuous.

    Driver is better than the material he got. And sadly, I think his sex appeal and the character’s parentage became more important for the character’s story than his skills at acting, even though he was putting serious work into the character - after all, the meat of the character he was playing and doing the best job with was in making Kylo a sick motherkriffer, but his fate only comes from being Han and Leia’s little boy and ‘shipping him with his victim in Rey.
    Last edited by godisawesome; 07-25-2020 at 03:41 PM.
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  10. #25
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ash2020 View Post
    I think his character was being strong in the earlier parts, but near the end I think his character was kind of lame. The actor probably did ok. If it wasn't Adam Driver, who do you think would be a good choice for the role?
    Dunno. Zachary Quinto?
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  11. #26
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    I've heard Jesse Plemons read for a role, but that might've been for Finn, Poe, or Hux.

    There's also a rumor that Eddie Reymayne was approached.
    Last edited by ChrisIII; 07-25-2020 at 09:01 AM.
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  12. #27
    Wakanda Forever Xero Kaiser's Avatar
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    I liked his design in TFA and he seemed cool enough in the first part of the movie.

    He lost all his respect when Rey snatched his chain at the end of TFA and never recovered. It was way too early for him to get wrecked like that. Then the spends the rest of his time straddling the light side/dark side fence (with a godawful love story tacked onto it) until he gets redeemed in the last 5 minutes of the trilogy.

    Yeah, just a missed opportunity all around.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xero Kaiser View Post
    I liked his design in TFA and he seemed cool enough in the first part of the movie.

    He lost all his respect when Rey snatched his chain at the end of TFA and never recovered. It was way too early for him to get wrecked like that. Then the spends the rest of his time straddling the light side/dark side fence (with a godawful love story tacked onto it) until he gets redeemed in the last 5 minutes of the trilogy.

    Yeah, just a missed opportunity all around.
    He left TFA not quite adequate as a threat to Rey, but also pretty much totally incapable of a male lead, romantic lead, protagonist role.

    And at least his threat level was directly tied to Snoke saying he was going to get trained in the next film, and at least it took outside interference and him going easy on Rey for her to beat him.

    It would have been a lot easier to give him a raining scene, face Rey again, and defeat her in a resounding Vader-in-ESB fashion than it would be to try and make the Neo-Nazi school shooter and pseudo-mind-rapist become sufficiently sympathetic to be something besides a loathsome villain...

    ...And yet, TLJ both went with the former idea *and* insisted he didn’t need anything more than a lame “Luke started it by scaring me, so I *had* to become a mass murdering space Neo-Nazi!”

    ...I’ll also be honest and say that if Finn had remained in the spotlight as Rey’s main companion and as an enemy Kylo personally hates, it would ave helped as well, since Finn was still very much the underdog... and a better character in just one film than Kylo/Ben in three.
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  14. #29
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    He left TFA not quite adequate as a threat to Rey, but also pretty much totally incapable of a male lead, romantic lead, protagonist role.

    And at least his threat level was directly tied to Snoke saying he was going to get trained in the next film, and at least it took outside interference and him going easy on Rey for her to beat him.

    It would have been a lot easier to give him a raining scene, face Rey again, and defeat her in a resounding Vader-in-ESB fashion than it would be to try and make the Neo-Nazi school shooter and pseudo-mind-rapist become sufficiently sympathetic to be something besides a loathsome villain...

    ...And yet, TLJ both went with the former idea *and* insisted he didn’t need anything more than a lame “Luke started it by scaring me, so I *had* to become a mass murdering space Neo-Nazi!”

    ...I’ll also be honest and say that if Finn had remained in the spotlight as Rey’s main companion and as an enemy Kylo personally hates, it would ave helped as well, since Finn was still very much the underdog... and a better character in just one film than Kylo/Ben in three.
    Yeah. When I heard Finn, the one character I actually really liked from Awakens, was made into an afterthought in the next film, any interest I had going forward was gone. It didn't help with what they did to Luke (especially compared to the EU before Disney took over).

  15. #30
    Amazing Member FRC Coazze's Avatar
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    Kylo is the only character that tries to be interesting in the sequel trilogy. I think much of his appeal is due to the actor: Adam Driver carries the trilogy on his shoulders. It really is a pity to see so much potential getting wasted. Overall the entire sequel trilogy is just disappointing and annoying (I’m not angry as other fans are, but those movies can be really frustrating).

    TFA is where Kylo really fails as a character I think, it’s his worst movie. He started off cool and ended up as a waste, and his arc in the first movie undermined his credibility as a villain in the sequels. He can’t be a menacing threat ‘cause he got beaten by the protagonist in their first fight, and if you don't have a good villain you can't have a decent hero (and the sequel trilogy doesn't have a villain at all). I liked him better in The Last Jedi… except from the fact that there was another movie before and that Kylo’s character in TLJ clashes with the same character from TFA. But we know how consistent the sequel trilogy is.

    I liked him when he’s Ben Solo again. Pity he doesn’t even say a word.

    I don’t know, and can’t fathom, what went on at Disney… but were they scared he could actually be a good interesting character? Is that why they treated him so poorly? Is that why he was the one to die? Is that why he doesn’t utter a word in the last scenes of TROS? He’s the only legit Skywalker there, for crying out loud! I like Kylo. If I had to choose a character from the sequel trilogy that would be him. That's why I'm so displeased by they way he's been handled.
    Last edited by FRC Coazze; 08-06-2020 at 09:34 AM.

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