What to do with Metallo?

[scary harpy]

The thing is, if we’re using Kryptonite Man, and I like the New 52 K-Man Clay Ramses who is a wifebeater, Metallo and K-Man relying on Kryptonite feels redundant.

Then ditch K-Man? If two characters having the same thing is redundant, then the more obscure character should be the one to change somehow. Metallo is just the better known villain. And I don't think it's that redundant either.

Don't ditch any villain. Superman needs more foes not less.

Is Metallo overused? Could that be his problem? Or does he just need to be used better?

[daBronzeBomma]

I wouldn't be as annoyed about this if Metallo was just some one-trick foe made up in the 1990s that never got any play elsewhere.

But this is Metallo.

In the hierarchy of Super Rogues (not counting any Fourth World characters like Darkseid who were not created for Supes) in terms of fame and reusability, it goes like this:

The Big Bads
1. Lex Luthor
2. Brainiac
3. Zod

The Memorable Dum-Dums
4. Bizarro
5. Doomsday

The Always Fun one
6. Mxyzptlk

Then...

The Always Boring One
7. Metallo

That wouldn't be so annoying if Kal only had 7 recurring rogues total. But he has a lot more than that.

Which means that despite his ineptitude, Metallo is still more famous and frequently used across more media than these guys (random order):

8. Toyman
9. Cyborg Superman
10. Parasite
11. Maxima
12. Mongul
13. Eradicator
14. Manchester Black
15. Livewire
16. Bruno Mannheim
17. Imperiex
18. Lady Blaze
19. Dominus
20. The Prankster
21. Silver Banshee
22. Terra-Man
23. Titano
24. Ultra-Humanite
25. Kryptonite Man
26. Gog
27. Atomic Skull
28. Bloodshot
29. Quarmer
30. Cerberus
31. Riot
32. Blackrock
33. Conduit
34. Insect Queen
35. Hellgrammite
36. Ultraman
37. Superboy-Prime
38. Galactic Golem
39. Master Jailer
40. Nuclear Man

Now, Metallo isn't worse than all these villains. He's not #40. Based on usage alone, he's in the Top 1/8th of Super Rogues at #7.

But based on interesting stories, he's in the Bottom 1/2 (I'd say #21 at best).

There are definite redundancies in there, especially with Metallo, Kryptonite Man, and Cyborg Superman.

[Vordan]

It isn't boring - you think it is, and maybe some writers suck at using it well. Doesn't make it some fact everyone agrees on though. I like the visual appeal of it, and I like someone besides Lex and Batman being the only ones just about to utilize Superman's most prolific weakness.

Ok - when has it been used in exciting ways? You’re not really selling it to me here man, just saying “well I like it”. Cool, but I remain unconvinced. Kryptonite has not made Metallo into a threat, I’d argue it’s undercut his ability to do that. Supes usually shakes off any K-poisoning, none the worst for wear. Despite his Terminator like appearance, Metallo doesn’t have any intimidation factor, even though he’s walked around with the biggest weakness Superman has.

Then ditch K-Man? If two characters having the same thing is redundant, then the more obscure character should be the one to change somehow. Metallo is just the better known villain. And I don't think it's that redundant either.

Why? Clay is a good rogue to have since he’s a roided up wifebeater. Having him be the one with Kryptonite powers makes sense because it makes him literally toxic. Let’s Supes have those kind of social justice type stories since here’s a guy who embodies social ills but is actually a threat.

[Vakanai]

Don't ditch any villain. Superman needs more foes not less.

Is Metallo overused? Could that be his problem? Or does he just need to be used better?

I agree no villain should be ditched, my point was more don't take away from Metallo because a more obscure villain also does the kryptonite thing. If you had to take away or change a character for that reason (and I don't think you should), Metallo isn't the one of those two you do.

[Vakanai]

Ok - when has it been used in exciting ways? You’re not really selling it to me here man, just saying “well I like it”. Cool, but I remain unconvinced. Kryptonite has not made Metallo into a threat, I’d argue it’s undercut his ability to do that. Supes usually shakes off any K-poisoning, none the worst for wear. Despite his Terminator like appearance, Metallo doesn’t have any intimidation factor, even though he’s walked around with the biggest weakness Superman has.

Why? Clay is a good rogue to have since he’s a roided up wifebeater. Having him be the one with Kryptonite powers makes sense because it makes him literally toxic. Let’s Supes have those kind of social justice type stories since here’s a guy who embodies social ills but is actually a threat.

I'm not trying to sell it to you or trying to convince you - I'm saying you haven't sold it to me, yet you're acting like it's a fact because you feel that way. Frankly I don't think taking kryptonite away will make him better. Oh he can't exploit Superman's weakness so writers will have him be more of a threat and leave Superman with a scar. No, not happening. He'll just be considered less of a threat, get beat down a bit more, disappear for a while, until a writer says screw it and brings him back with the kryptonite again. If Metallo is going to be a threat, you can't take the one interesting visual gimmick he has and think writers and artists will flock to it. The thing is I don't have to convince you he needs the kryptonite heart - he already has it, nobody needs to argue against a change, status quo just runs itself. If you want change, then it is you who has to convince others that it'd be better if he didn't have the kryptonite - and you haven't produced an argument for it that convinces me.

Edit - Also, K-Man just isn't a big name. Personally I'd leave both as is, not like there aren't similar powered rogues in comics, but if someone has to change, it's always the more obscure or less popular one. Doesn't matter if you feel one offers more of a social justice angle that appeals to you, just makes less business sense. But again I don't see them both existing with kryptonite redundant, so it's not a problem.

[K7P5V]

Let him be. Just because he has a well known name and a super easy gimmick doesn't mean you have to include him. When I see interviews with a lot of modern writers they're like ,"oh man, after this story this is gonna be your favorite villain." But they can't all be, you know? Batman has some extremely niche villains (outright identical to other villains who fill the same niche for other heroes) in Mad Hatter and Scarecrow. When someone has a story to tell about them we see them, but it never seems important to try telling a different, "more important" story about them.

Metallo has been like a dozen similar characters. Surprise surprise, I like the late 80s to mid 90s version, the STAS take, and the Pasko/Conway ones best, with extra credit given to Metalo. New 52 Kryptonite Man was like another Metallo more than an actual K Man.

Having said that, sure, there's an opportunity to change. But I don't believe he can be a Sabertooth even if you take him from Superman and put him in a smaller pond. people are already ripping on the upcoming Bendis villain, who I think sounds more appealing than a forced Metallo. Metallo will passively outlast him anyway.

Kudos to Vordan for all the ideas though.

In agreement with you about the STAS version of John Corben.




Still a fan of Metallo (DCAU version, of course).

[Vordan]

I'm not trying to sell it to you or trying to convince you - I'm saying you haven't sold it to me, yet you're acting like it's a fact because you feel that way. Frankly I don't think taking kryptonite away will make him better. Oh he can't exploit Superman's weakness so writers will have him be more of a threat and leave Superman with a scar. No, not happening. He'll just be considered less of a threat, get beat down a bit more, disappear for a while, until a writer says screw it and brings him back with the kryptonite again. If Metallo is going to be a threat, you can't take the one interesting visual gimmick he has and think writers and artists will flock to it. The thing is I don't have to convince you he needs the kryptonite heart - he already has it, nobody needs to argue against a change, status quo just runs itself. If you want change, then it is you who has to convince others that it'd be better if he didn't have the kryptonite - and you haven't produced an argument for it that convinces me.

Edit - Also, K-Man just isn't a big name. Personally I'd leave both as is, not like there aren't similar powered rogues in comics, but if someone has to change, it's always the more obscure or less popular one. Doesn't matter if you feel one offers more of a social justice angle that appeals to you, just makes less business sense. But again I don't see them both existing with kryptonite redundant, so it's not a problem.

So literally what has happened right now, with his supposedly iconic feature still present? What you are describing is literally how he was treated in his last appearances. Arguing that “he needs it because that’s the way it’s always been!” is not a solid argument for me. The status quo for Metallo as it exists right now, sucks. He’s a lame villain with a lame motivation and lame appearances as he exists right now. He needs a revamp imo, because it’s been 20 years since Byrne revamped him and he has nothing to show for it. What stories can you point to that back up Metallo having the Kryptonite heart as important or necessary?

I’m not saying I have al the answers for how to make him work, but I think I’ve got a better foundation than what he has right now. He needs goals beyond “killing Superman”, desires greater than “rob a bank” or at the very least better reasons for both of those outlooks.

If I “had” to keep the Kryptonite heart, I would go with the Superman 2000 idea of having it be Red Kryptonite instead of Green. That would at least add some variety to the fights. It being Red K would explain why he doesn’t just immediately use it like he does right now: Red K is unpredictable. It could hurt Kal, or empower him, or do weird **** to him. That would add some unpredictability and help make him more of a foe Kal would fear to take head on.

Don't ditch any villain. Superman needs more foes not less.

Is Metallo overused? Could that be his problem? Or does he just need to be used better?

Not really. It’s the opposite actually, he’s underused. He’s never been the sole focus of an arc, always been either the guy Superman beats up on the way to deal with the real threat, or henching for someone like Lex. He needs to get some focus.

[Gaius]

I'd be fine with getting rid of the Kryptonite heart since I tend to think of Metallo's Terminator look before I do his association with Kyptonite.

[Ascended]

Well, the people saying Metallo is just a mook are correct. That's all he's ever been; if he's not being manipulated by smarter people he's just out for revenge against Superman for....letting him be manipulated by smarter people, mostly.

And you know what? That's okay. Metallo has power, but not the insight to use it, and so he's always a pawn. That's an interesting concept if it's done right.

Personally, I liked his New52 version. He was a pawn, and not even a likable one, but it was hard not to feel a little sorry for him anyway; first used by the military, then Lex, then Brainiac.....and he knew that he was just being used by all these people, that he had fallen off the track of the loyal soldier, but he couldn't find his way out of the mess he had made of his life. While the comics didn't do enough with all this to really make it work, there was a lot of potential in the approach. It wasn't really turning Metallo into a hero (and I wouldn't want that), but it was giving him some pathos and motivation beyond "Smash Superman!"

[godisawesome]

A few ideas:

1. Attitude-wise, make him more of a professional criminal and mercenary, one who defies the push for a personal rivalry or grudge with Superman: make him more akin to Shocker, the Flash’s Rogues, or Wallenquist from Sin City. He really, really shouldn’t want to fight Superman, draw his attention, or do anything besides make money and seek out his own self-interest. Now, as to why he wants to make money... well, he’s a cyborg who’s had his senses reduced, akin to the STAS version, but investing money into hardware and software to restore his sense, repair, and improve them. And maybe he’s a guy whose enjoyment of sensory input after being denied it has left him as a guy who doesn’t mind the idea of living forever.

2. Put him with Intergang as their “kingmaker” subboss. He doesn’t have to want to be the “big bad” but he should be too smart to just be a henchman. He’s too powerful to take orders, but too self-aware and self-centered to try and run a huge organization by himself. STAS got some good mileage out of Corben being a guy who could have henchmen *and* bosses; make him be comfortable as a lieutenant.

3. Make him a “practical” anti-Superman cyborg. Emphasize his durability, give him more modular weapons, and *keep the Kryptonite heart... but mostly as a power source* he only uses as an emergency weapon, as exposing it is also exposing his heart. So while he prefers his Kryptonite and covets and hunts it from others... he can and often does run off more “mundane” radioactive sources, and perhaps even lives in a nuclear reactor as his fallback spot when under pressure.

I’d keep the idea that he was designed to fight Kryptonians, which gives him a lot of specialized weaponry that makes him unbelievably powerful, but which he actually “misuses” by trying to avoid fighting Superman, Supergirl, or others unless he has to... or is promised such a substantial reward that it makes sense he pursues them.

[TaliaJoy]

A few ideas:

1. Attitude-wise, make him more of a professional criminal and mercenary, one who defies the push for a personal rivalry or grudge with Superman: make him more akin to Shocker, the Flash’s Rogues, or Wallenquist from Sin City. He really, really shouldn’t want to fight Superman, draw his attention, or do anything besides make money and seek out his own self-interest. Now, as to why he wants to make money... well, he’s a cyborg who’s had his senses reduced, akin to the STAS version, but investing money into hardware and software to restore his sense, repair, and improve them. And maybe he’s a guy whose enjoyment of sensory input after being denied it has left him as a guy who doesn’t mind the idea of living forever.

2. Put him with Intergang as their “kingmaker” subboss. He doesn’t have to want to be the “big bad” but he should be too smart to just be a henchman. He’s too powerful to take orders, but too self-aware and self-centered to try and run a huge organization by himself. STAS got some good mileage out of Corben being a guy who could have henchmen *and* bosses; make him be comfortable as a lieutenant.

3. Make him a “practical” anti-Superman cyborg. Emphasize his durability, give him more modular weapons, and *keep the Kryptonite heart... but mostly as a power source* he only uses as an emergency weapon, as exposing it is also exposing his heart. So while he prefers his Kryptonite and covets and hunts it from others... he can and often does run off more “mundane” radioactive sources, and perhaps even lives in a nuclear reactor as his fallback spot when under pressure.

I’d keep the idea that he was designed to fight Kryptonians, which gives him a lot of specialized weaponry that makes him unbelievably powerful, but which he actually “misuses” by trying to avoid fighting Superman, Supergirl, or others unless he has to... or is promised such a substantial reward that it makes sense he pursues them.

I really like these ideas. This is definitely the kind of direction I'd like for him.

[Robanker]

Of the Super Rogues, he’s the one I want to write the most. He has so many aspects to him that scream of potential, and yet they have never come together in a way that satisfies me, not under Johns, or Morrison, or anyone. I’m going to list those aspects that have potential in my eyes:
1. He’s a rival for Lois’ affections
2. He’s a military man, the super-patriot rival who embodies the darker sides of American patriotism to contrast with Superman
3. He’s the son Sam Lane wanted
4. His powers rob him of his humanity in contrast with Clark’s powers enhancing his humanity
5. He’s the Anti-Superman, a human weapon made to kill Clark
6. He’s The Man, a government stooge, the perfect way to explore how often Clark himself has played that role in stories like The Dark Knight Returns
7. He’s got that classic toxic alpha male personality where he seeks to “prove” his manhood by beating the **** out of anyone he thinks is his rival to contrast with Clark’s much more zen outlook on life
8. Despite often beginning with the goal of supposedly “protecting” people, Corbyn really only cares about himself and those he seeks the approval of, he doesn’t give a damn about civilian casualties
9. He’s a xenophobe
10. He’s iconic, one of Superman’s most long lasting villains

Look at all that, there’s plenty here to explore, but the aspects never come together into a definitive take which frustrates the hell out of me. I like Corbyn, I think he brings something to the table, but he’s been used as you point out, mostly as a dumbass thug who just does errands for other people and that is not a characterization that’s going to let him reach his potential. Here’s how I would handle him:

1. Ditch the Kryptonite heart. Yes I know it’s iconic, but it’s boring. Every damn fight between Metallo and Superman goes like this: Metallo shows up, shoots Kryptonite at Superman, Superman falls over and cries in pain, Metallo stands there gloating instead of finishing Clark off, Clark somehow knocks Metallo out or gets rid of his Kryptonite, and then Clark moves on none the worse for wear. Metallo needs to leave Clark some goddamn scars every time they tussle. He should be the ultimate Anti-Superman weapon, custom built with counters for every one of Clark’s powers. In Superman Unchained, Bruce built a suit that was invisible to Clark’s vision powers, use that for Metallo for God’s sake! Metallo is invisible to Clark’s vision, can muffle his movements so Clark can’t hear him, comes custom built with weapons besides just fists that can hurt him and pierce his skin. Heat vision? Arctic breath? Metallo has internal temperature regulators that can let him survive on the surface of the sun or the cold of space. Physical strength? Metallo has a self-repair protocol, as long as a single scrap of him survives he can come back. And keep the DCAU feature where he’s lost all physical feeling, so Clark can whale on him all he wants, but Metallo doesn’t feel pain anymore. I don’t think Metallo should be pure robot, he should be like these guys:

The Crysis video games feature “post human warriors” that are man-machine hybrids, human soldiers who are merged with nanosuits, who are created to do war with aliens. Sound familiar? That’s modern Metallo to a goddamn T, they totally should be drawing influence from these guys. Also he should be able to form his suit into all kinds of weapons like Iron Man and Blue Beetle do, and he’s had that ability in the past:


2. Give Metallo a better motivation than “I WANNA KILL SUPERMAN RAAAGGGGHHHHH” because guess what? That’s 90% of his Rogues, that’s what freaking Doomsday wants, Metallo needs something else to drive him. I think the solution to that problem is found in Johns brilliant idea to tie Metallo to the United States military. Metallo is a soldier, he sees himself as a classic hero, the guy who sacrificed himself for his country and humanity, in order to protect them from an alien invader, Superman. He wants respect, he wants to be treated as the hero he believes he is, and everything he does should be written with that in mind. He should start off continuing to do the government’s bidding, the DKR “Man of Steel” to the traditional Superman take who often finds himself on the opposite side of the law. Metallo starts off all about “Law and Order”, “protecting our freedoms”, etc, etc. Metallo is what the government would like Superman to be, a weapon they can deploy at will, and for a while he’s thrilled to do what they want. But ultimately I think Metallo should realize he’s being used, and turn against his handlers, and now the government has a walking WMD who can go toe to toe with Superman and is very pissed off at them for using him. I’d have his turning point be when he realizes they’re never going to retire his ability to feel, and he’s never going to be seen as a hero. That’s his breaking point.

3. He should remain obsessed with Lois. Unlike Clark, Corbyn doesn’t give a toss about Lois as a person. He wants her as a prize. The hot “uppity” chick he domesticated to show his manhood. He should also want to “punish” her for rejecting him, and for writing about the atrocities he performed as a tool for Sam Lane and the government. You could definitely do some comparisons about how Clark himself planned on “wearing down” Lois’ refusal to give him the time of day at first, and Lois and Sam could have interesting exploration of their dynamic, and how Sam wanted Corbyn as a son initially.

I’ve got more but I think what I’ve written is a good basis for building on. Better than his typical thug characterization.

I refuse to follow up such a great post. Write the book, dude. I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

[K. Jones]

I was reading that initial list of awesome reasons why Metallo is a great contrast villain for Superman.

And I was like "oh man, son Sam Lane always wanted ... rival ... serves the function of military stooge in a way that works well to poke holes in Frank Miller's TDK version of Superman?" SIGN ME UP! Let's add to that, he should come from Small-Town, USA, too!"

Then I realized that character already basically exists in the form of Conduit. Who also has way too much overlap with the Kryptonite Man, of which there are multiple Kryptonite Men.

So that presents a solution for me, frankly. For a character that mirrors Superman in the sense of being from a Small Town and going a different route, and growing up with Small Town ethics and ethos in such a way that he becomes a villain (because he wasn't raised by The Kents, specifically), you have Kenny Braverman, CONDUIT, the Kryptonite-Radiation villain.

For the son Sam Lane always wanted, the "Man of Steel", you have METALLO. Divorce him entirely from any Kryptonite-based powers and go heavy on the mechanized elements. Of course then you get into weird territory. How mechanized is this guy? Is he like ... Hank Henshaw? Is he basically Cyborg Superman? And if that's the case does he go all the way deep into that Artificial/Digital Life aspect and become a 'virus in the system' trope? Which is basically TAS Brainiac?

Too many of Superman's cool villains are like the same guy, or overlap like 75% or more with another of Superman's villains. (For instance, endoskeletal Metallo ... 1970s Brainiac ... Hank Henshaw ... they're all just robot Skeleton or later Terminator riffs, yeah?)

If it's just an Iron Man style suit that also serves to keep him alive, which is a strong concept that could make him sort of like Luthor, sort of like Steel, sort of like Tony Stark, I could see that really working. Especially if you maybe play with the notion that he's an injured military veteran? A vet with a disability? Sort of like the Flash Thompson VENOM, actually. That I could see being a really strong play, maybe even stronger still if he's bonded with some kind of Alien Metal? Of course then that has a lot of overlap with Captain Atom. But I was thinking more of the T-2000, liquid metal. And worse ethics. It's not a bad idea to have Metallo continue in the vein of mercenary work once he uses armor or metal to get himself back up and running.

I think there's a strong case for Steel to factor heavily in Metallo stories and to build a sort of Metropolis and very Luthor connected variation of ARMOR WARS. Superman exists, everyone wants mecha warsuits, Russia has Rocket Reds, Luthor wants military contracts (and to keep the best advancements for his next garish green & purple suit), great place for Metallo in that story.

[Vakanai]

So literally what has happened right now, with his supposedly iconic feature still present? What you are describing is literally how he was treated in his last appearances. Arguing that “he needs it because that’s the way it’s always been!” is not a solid argument for me. The status quo for Metallo as it exists right now, sucks. He’s a lame villain with a lame motivation and lame appearances as he exists right now. He needs a revamp imo, because it’s been 20 years since Byrne revamped him and he has nothing to show for it. What stories can you point to that back up Metallo having the Kryptonite heart as important or necessary?

I’m not saying I have al the answers for how to make him work, but I think I’ve got a better foundation than what he has right now. He needs goals beyond “killing Superman”, desires greater than “rob a bank” or at the very least better reasons for both of those outlooks.

If I “had” to keep the Kryptonite heart, I would go with the Superman 2000 idea of having it be Red Kryptonite instead of Green. That would at least add some variety to the fights. It being Red K would explain why he doesn’t just immediately use it like he does right now: Red K is unpredictable. It could hurt Kal, or empower him, or do weird **** to him. That would add some unpredictability and help make him more of a foe Kal would fear to take head on.

Not really. It’s the opposite actually, he’s underused. He’s never been the sole focus of an arc, always been either the guy Superman beats up on the way to deal with the real threat, or henching for someone like Lex. He needs to get some focus.

Keeping it doesn't change anything, changing it won't make him better. Frankly no suggestion anyone here makes. A writer has to want to use him. But I really don't think removing the power will go over like you think it will.

[Adekis]

I think my favorite version of Metallo is actually the Golden Age Metalo. To the best of my knowledge, he's the first, and maybe only effective, "evil version of Superman." He jumps like Superman, lifts like Superman, fights like Superman, and even quips like Superman - but he's a thief and a scoundrel.

Only got one appearance, I think, which is too bad, and one revival in the early 80s on Earth Two, during which he received the name "George Grant". I'm pretty sure he predates Kryptonite's appearance on radio, but not the unpublished "K-Metal from Krypton" story. Either way, he doesn't use Kryptonite to power his armor or anything. Still, maybe that'd be a way to keep Kryptonite involved, but without making that his only thing. Metalo never used Kryptonite on Superman, but he is more powerful than a locomotive, and he does leap tall buildings in a single bound!