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  1. #1
    Mighty Member zinderel's Avatar
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    Default What if Moira herself is why mutants fail in every timeline...?

    During the pandemic, I went back and re-read HoX/PoX, because I am loving what Hickman is doing, and want to keep it fresh in my mind for when comics come back properly.

    While reading ‘The Uncanny Life of Moira X’, something struck me.

    We see all of Moira’s lives (well, most of them) play out in much the same way. She meets Charles (or another mover and shaker in the mutant race), Charles forms the X-Men, mutantkind falls. But there are two lives where that DOESN’T happen. Life 1, where she lives out her days, unaware of mutants even being a thing. She marries, has kids, lives a GOOD, uncomplicated life and dies of old age. And Life 2, where she dies young in a plane crash.

    That didn’t stand out as significant to me, at first, but this time...if mutant-human relationships are ALWAYS meant to worsen and lead to wars of genetic supremacy...how did she live out that first life with NO clue? If mutants were battling giant robots in the heart of New York City on the reg, it would be TALKED about. Even if she somehow avoided ever watching the news or reading a newspaper in her entire long life, SOMEONE would have said SOMETHING about it within earshot...right? And if they had, you would think the narration would note that, considering how important that conflict is to the heart of HoX/PoX...

    Overheard in line at a grocery store: “Did you hear? Those mutant weirdos tried to blow up Madison Square Gardens! It’s TRUE! I saw it on CNN!”
    Or at the bank: “You know, my granddaughter is one of those...’mutants’...that’ve been in the paper? She’s one of the good ones, though...she makes plants grow!”

    It seems impossible to me that Moira grew to old age and died without ever hearing of the existence of evil mutants or giant mutant-killing robots. And in her second life, she dies too young to know how mutant-human Relations went. So...what if she DID grow old without hearing about evil mutants or giant robots or genocidal purges...because things never escalate to that point unless she interferes? What if, by involving herself directly in mutant-human affairs, SHE is the reason mutantkind always falls? What if it’s her meddling - her surety that SHE knows what’s best because SHE has so much more life experience than anyone else - that causes Everything to fall apart?

    And what if she realizes that, just before the end...and she’s reborn that *possible* 11th time Irene mentioned, and stays out of things (maybe even takes a whole...BUTTERFLY EFFECT solution to the problem...), leading to a better timeline for both humans and mutants? What if that is the end result, the way to move the X-Men - as a franchise - forward and not allow wiggle room for going back to the same old genocide cycle as before?

    “Moira never got involved in this timeline, so mutants aren’t hated and feared on a global scale, and never have been. There are pockets of humanity - small, but loud, sometimes well-funded - who are racist jerks, sure, but people don’t kill their own children for being mutants anymore. They never did in this timeline. Tell a better story.”

    Apologies if this has been brought up. I’ve been away a while.
    Last edited by zinderel; 06-17-2020 at 01:50 PM.

  2. #2
    Judgement Awaits LordAllMIghty's Avatar
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    That might be the reason Moria doesn't want precogs on the island.
    I've seen your end and it starts with you challenging me.

  3. #3
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinderel View Post
    During the pandemic, I went back and re-read HoX/PoX, because I am loving what Hickman is doing, and want to keep it fresh in my mind for when comics come back properly.

    While reading ‘The Uncanny Life of Moira X’, something struck me.

    We see all of Moira’s lives (well, most of them) play out in much the same way. She meets Charles (or another mover and shaker in the mutant race), Charles forms the X-Men, mutantkind falls. But there are two lives where that DOESN’T happen. Life 1, where she lives out her days, unaware of mutants even being a thing. She marries, has kids, lives a GOOD, uncomplicated life and dies of old age. And Life 2, where she dies young in a plane crash.

    That didn’t stand out as significant to me, at first, but this time...if mutant-human relationships are ALWAYS meant to worsen and lead to wars of genetic supremacy...how did she live out that first life with NO clue? If mutants were battling giant robots in the heart of New York City on the reg, it would be TALKED about. Even if she somehow avoided ever watching the news or reading a newspaper in her entire long life, SOMEONE would have said SOMETHING about it within earshot...right? And if they had, you would think the narration would note that, considering how important that conflict is to the heart of HoX/PoX...

    Overheard in line at a grocery store: “Did you hear? Those mutant weirdos tried to blow up Madison Square Gardens! It’s TRUE! I saw it on CNN!”
    Or at the bank: “You know, my granddaughter is one of those...’mutants’...that’ve been in the paper? She’s one of the good ones, though...she makes plants grow!”

    It seems impossible to me that Moira grew to old age and died without ever hearing of the existence of evil mutants or giant mutant-killing robots. And in her second life, she dies too young to know how mutant-human Relations went. So...what if she DID grow old without hearing about evil mutants or giant robots or genocidal purges...because she hadn’t involved herself? What if, by involving herself directly in mutant-human affairs, SHE is the reason mutantkind always falls? What if it’s her meddling - her surety that SHE knows what’s best because SHE has so much more life experience than anyone else - that causes Everything to fall apart?

    And what if she realizes that, just before the end...and she’s reborn that *possible* 11th time Irene mentioned, and stays out of things (maybe even takes a whole...BUTTERFLY EFFECT solution to the problem...), leading to a better timeline for both humans and mutants? What if that is the end result, the way to move the X-Men - as a franchise - forward and not allow wiggle room for going back to the same old genocide cycle as before?

    “Moira never got involved in this timeline, so mutants aren’t hated and feared on a global scale, and never have been. There are pockets of humanity - small, but loud, sometimes well-funded - who are racist jerks, sure, but people don’t kill their own children for being mutants anymore. They never did in this timeline. Tell a better story.”

    Apologies if this has been brought up. I’ve been away a while.
    Hmmmmn. Very interesting indeed!!

  4. #4
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    I think it is possible that Moira is indeed the cause due to the observer effect.

    I've also theorized that perhaps the Sentinels are unavoidable on every timeline because it's the Dominions and Phalanx's way of trying to kill her. Like an immune system of reality. Reality DOES NOT want an insignificant mutant resetting it and looking for ways to remove her.

    In a way it would be like the adaptoids and Cartographers of Hickman's Avengers.

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member Veitha's Avatar
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    Very interesting idea!

    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    I think it is possible that Moira is indeed the cause due to the observer effect.

    I've also theorized that perhaps the Sentinels are unavoidable on every timeline because it's the Dominions and Phalanx's way of trying to kill her. Like an immune system of reality. Reality DOES NOT want an insignificant mutant resetting it and looking for ways to remove her.

    In a way it would be like the adaptoids and Cartographers of Hickman's Avengers.
    This is also a very interesting theory.

  6. #6
    Mighty Member Su_Whisterfield's Avatar
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    That’s an interesting analysis, I hadn’t thought of that angle, it would circumvent a lot of the problematic issues from the past couple of decades.

  7. #7
    Mighty Member zinderel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    I think it is possible that Moira is indeed the cause due to the observer effect.

    I've also theorized that perhaps the Sentinels are unavoidable on every timeline because it's the Dominions and Phalanx's way of trying to kill her. Like an immune system of reality. Reality DOES NOT want an insignificant mutant resetting it and looking for ways to remove her.

    In a way it would be like the adaptoids and Cartographers of Hickman's Avengers.
    Ooooh, I like that!

  8. #8
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    Very interesting idea!



    This is also a very interesting theory.
    I was thinking about what Apocalypse says in the ninth life. Artificial intelligence is inevitable, but why in all timelines does it end up being directed against mutants? It is a constant.

    AI should not always be intrinsically directed to annihilate mutants. There are AI like Ultron who cannot be more indifferent to mutants.

    Why is someone always thinking, "Hey, you know what would be cool? Making giant robots specifically designed to kill mutants."? Even when Moira killed all the Trasks, someone else came up with the Sentinel. And the most intriguing thing is that the design was similar.

    Perhaps the Dominions are so gigantic that they simply cannot distinguish Moira. As the blue guy comments, they would not tolerate something so small having an influence on them. But they don't know exactly what Moira is because Logan killed the guy before that information got to the Dominions.

    Perhaps they only know that this something that occurs every approximately 30-40 years that restarts the entire Universe originates from Earth.

    And they are angry with that insignificant planet and with that insignificant species that dares to alter their plans.

  9. #9
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    Interesting theories. Especially about the Dominion and Phalanx wanting to kill her.

    Its just really occurred to me that Moira's death is one way of resetting the whole Marvel universe.

    I'll take it in another direction. Remember in life 1 she had kids and possibly grandkids. I think it was twin boys and a girl. So basically out of 3 kids none of them were mutants? And as we know it seems in the Marvel universe kids seem to inherit powers from the parent and the powers are normally very similar. Think Proteus who can warp reality. His mother is being explained as the ultimate reality warper. So maybe just maybe her kids in life 1...I think they are Dean and Callum and Abigail. One of them has some similar ability to restore a timeline or warp reality or be unaffected...something.

    I do think that Moira's 11th life if she has one will be as a nonmutant.

  10. #10
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    I never thought of Moira's children in the first life. Maybe they weren't mutants, not all mutants have mutant children but it's interesting.

    Moira and Xavier had to find specific mates to spawn Proteus and Legion. It is interesting to think about it because it means that any fact that depends on the two of them is unique to the current timeline, like Age of Apocalypse.

    Onslaught is also unique in "our" timeline.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    I was thinking about what Apocalypse says in the ninth life. Artificial intelligence is inevitable, but why in all timelines does it end up being directed against mutants? It is a constant.

    AI should not always be intrinsically directed to annihilate mutants. There are AI like Ultron who cannot be more indifferent to mutants.

    Why is someone always thinking, "Hey, you know what would be cool? Making giant robots specifically designed to kill mutants."? Even when Moira killed all the Trasks, someone else came up with the Sentinel. And the most intriguing thing is that the design was similar.

    Perhaps the Dominions are so gigantic that they simply cannot distinguish Moira. As the blue guy comments, they would not tolerate something so small having an influence on them. But they don't know exactly what Moira is because Logan killed the guy before that information got to the Dominions.

    Perhaps they only know that this something that occurs every approximately 30-40 years that restarts the entire Universe originates from Earth.

    And they are angry with that insignificant planet and with that insignificant species that dares to alter their plans.
    That seems viable. Especially if the Dominion and Phalanx know it comes from mutantkind and that the key to post humanity (homo Novissima) is actually something to do with Phalanx and TO virus and possibly some form of integration with that.

    Makes me wonder if this is like the MCU Dr.Srrange thing where he saw all these possible outcomes but only one works where they win.

  12. #12
    Astonishing Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinderel View Post
    During the pandemic, I went back and re-read HoX/PoX, because I am loving what Hickman is doing, and want to keep it fresh in my mind for when comics come back properly.

    While reading ‘The Uncanny Life of Moira X’, something struck me.

    We see all of Moira’s lives (well, most of them) play out in much the same way. She meets Charles (or another mover and shaker in the mutant race), Charles forms the X-Men, mutantkind falls. But there are two lives where that DOESN’T happen. Life 1, where she lives out her days, unaware of mutants even being a thing. She marries, has kids, lives a GOOD, uncomplicated life and dies of old age. And Life 2, where she dies young in a plane crash.

    That didn’t stand out as significant to me, at first, but this time...if mutant-human relationships are ALWAYS meant to worsen and lead to wars of genetic supremacy...how did she live out that first life with NO clue? If mutants were battling giant robots in the heart of New York City on the reg, it would be TALKED about. Even if she somehow avoided ever watching the news or reading a newspaper in her entire long life, SOMEONE would have said SOMETHING about it within earshot...right? And if they had, you would think the narration would note that, considering how important that conflict is to the heart of HoX/PoX...

    Overheard in line at a grocery store: “Did you hear? Those mutant weirdos tried to blow up Madison Square Gardens! It’s TRUE! I saw it on CNN!”
    Or at the bank: “You know, my granddaughter is one of those...’mutants’...that’ve been in the paper? She’s one of the good ones, though...she makes plants grow!”

    It seems impossible to me that Moira grew to old age and died without ever hearing of the existence of evil mutants or giant mutant-killing robots. And in her second life, she dies too young to know how mutant-human Relations went. So...what if she DID grow old without hearing about evil mutants or giant robots or genocidal purges...because things never escalate to that point unless she interferes? What if, by involving herself directly in mutant-human affairs, SHE is the reason mutantkind always falls? What if it’s her meddling - her surety that SHE knows what’s best because SHE has so much more life experience than anyone else - that causes Everything to fall apart?

    And what if she realizes that, just before the end...and she’s reborn that *possible* 11th time Irene mentioned, and stays out of things (maybe even takes a whole...BUTTERFLY EFFECT solution to the problem...), leading to a better timeline for both humans and mutants? What if that is the end result, the way to move the X-Men - as a franchise - forward and not allow wiggle room for going back to the same old genocide cycle as before?

    “Moira never got involved in this timeline, so mutants aren’t hated and feared on a global scale, and never have been. There are pockets of humanity - small, but loud, sometimes well-funded - who are racist jerks, sure, but people don’t kill their own children for being mutants anymore. They never did in this timeline. Tell a better story.”

    Apologies if this has been brought up. I’ve been away a while.
    I thought about this before too.

    We don't really know what happens with mutants in life 1, so it's entirely possible we're wrong, but one would think someone would notice a genocide and the world taken over by robots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    I think it is possible that Moira is indeed the cause due to the observer effect.

    I've also theorized that perhaps the Sentinels are unavoidable on every timeline because it's the Dominions and Phalanx's way of trying to kill her. Like an immune system of reality. Reality DOES NOT want an insignificant mutant resetting it and looking for ways to remove her.

    In a way it would be like the adaptoids and Cartographers of Hickman's Avengers.
    That one hadn't ocurred to me, it's interesting.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glio View Post
    I never thought of Moira's children in the first life. Maybe they weren't mutants, not all mutants have mutant children but it's interesting.

    Moira and Xavier had to find specific mates to spawn Proteus and Legion. It is interesting to think about it because it means that any fact that depends on the two of them is unique to the current timeline, like Age of Apocalypse.

    Onslaught is also unique in "our" timeline.
    I agree that maybe they weren't mutants but what are the odds of none of the 3 being mutants? It just doesnt work like that in the comics. Sure not all mutants have mutant children but most do. On top of that if Moira has memories of life with those children. Is it really unbelievable that she would miss them want them back or is she just content to not try to recreate some semblance of that life.

    This is why I want that Moira book. I dont care about Children of th Atom or X of Swords none of the foolishness. We need the Moira book. I would say that Moira leading Xfactor exploring and explaining her life along with the resurrection protocols would be one of the more compelling books. Especially if we had alternate timeline people on the roster like say Rachel....what if her motivation necomes fixing and restoring her timeline and you have a mutant with reset reincarnation powers near

  14. #14
    Deadly Bee Weapon coveredinbees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinderel View Post
    It seems impossible to me that Moira grew to old age and died without ever hearing of the existence of evil mutants or giant mutant-killing robots. And in her second life, she dies too young to know how mutant-human Relations went. So...what if she DID grow old without hearing about evil mutants or giant robots or genocidal purges...because things never escalate to that point unless she interferes? What if, by involving herself directly in mutant-human affairs, SHE is the reason mutantkind always falls? What if itís her meddling - her surety that SHE knows whatís best because SHE has so much more life experience than anyone else - that causes Everything to fall apart?
    I love this idea. I assumed she thought she was human and didn't care about mutants in her first life and that was why she was interested in a cure in her 2nd. Because it wasn't important to her until Destiny made it clear mutants don't need a cure.

    I like her being the cause, too. I definitely see that as possible. She is learning from each life, but she's still not able to stop things.

  15. #15
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    BTW, sometimes I think Xorn is a sneeze away from Rasputin and Cardinal coming out of his head. If black holes are able to "ignore" Moira's reset due to its ability to bend the laws of physics, perhaps Xorn can connect to his past versions.

    Xorn is like a mini-Titan.

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