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  1. #76
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Yeah, but in this case WW's "original texts" aren't Greek mythology because she's not a character from that mythology. Even when she beheaded Medusa in a story she didn't go parading around the head.
    She has a base in those stories and does draw from the iconography from it, time to time. Why else would medusa be even used? Let's see, if i create a character named "isanami" drawing heavily from shinto japanese folklore. My character would have an "original text".

  2. #77
    Astonishing Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    She has a base in those stories and does draw from the iconography from it, time to time. Why else would medusa be even used? Let's see, if i create a character named "isanami" drawing heavily from shinto japanese folklore. My character would have an "original text".
    Superman also draws partially from Moses and I've never once seen you bring that up. Inspirations and borrowing mythology does not mean that those original works inform the material any more than what's presented. Diana flat out isn't Greek. Her customs are built on the outside idea of Greece, but rarely have too much depth. There's not much by way of any period outside what intersects mythology. Their foods are just whatever they would seemed to have eaten in Toga Time^TM. Their pantheon? Economy? Warefare? It's all one very specific take that's rooted more in popular culture than history. The fact that the Amazons are so multicultural shows they're playing fast and loose with mythology; taking what works to enrich their story and jettisoning what doesn't work. Frankly? That's for the better. It's more unique when they're not beholden to what is accurate with respect to history or the original myths.

    Look at the Tom Cruise film "Valkyrie." It's draped in the iconography of the time, but do a little research on the German reception to that movie. Pretty much every German reviewer said that Cruise played Claus von Stauffenberg like an American; it was a very shallow imitation draped in their iconography. He didn't behave or uphold the values of a German man at that time.

    Diana is the same with Greece. Her culture is Themysciran, which itself is a multicultural pastiche of the American perception of Greco-Roman culture alongside an Egyptian contingent. She ain't Greek any more than some anime fan's slice-of-life fanfiction. Some writers really did put the research in, but frankly it doesn't translate to the broader DCU because she's just written as having come out of a Ray Harryhausen movie (which, again, cool but not really authentic). This is one such take.

    Why was Medusa used? Because it fits her aesthetic and she's a mythological monster who Diana can fight. She also was involved in a murder mystery in Tir na Nog a few years back. You going to tell me she's also Irish now?

    You're right, she does have an original text: All Star Comics #8, and like with all DC characters, it's not sacred. There's no doubt she borrows heavily from Greco-Roman mythology, but that's it. She borrows. Her narrative is very, very American.
    Last edited by Robanker; 06-21-2020 at 09:12 PM.

  3. #78
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Superman also draws partially from Moses and I've never once seen you bring that up. Inspirations and borrowing mythology does not mean that those original works inform the material any more than what's presented. Diana flat out isn't Greek. Her customs are built on the outside idea of Greece, but rarely have too much depth. There's not much by way of any period outside what intersects mythology. Their foods are just whatever they would seemed to have eaten in Toga Time^TM. Their pantheon? Economy? Warefare? It's all one very specific take that's rooted more in popular culture than history. The fact that the Amazons are so multicultural shows they're playing fast and loose with mythology; taking what works to enrich their story and jettisoning what doesn't work. Frankly? That's for the better. It's more unique when they're not beholden to what is accurate with respect to history or the original myths.

    Look at the Tom Cruise film "Valkyrie." It's draped in the iconography of the time, but do a little research on the German reception to that movie. Pretty much every German reviewer said that Cruise played Claus von Stauffenberg like an American; it was a very shallow imitation draped in their iconography. He didn't behave or uphold the values of a German man at that time.

    Diana is the same with Greece. Her culture is Themysciran, which itself is a multicultural pastiche of the American perception of Greco-Roman culture alongside an Egyptian contingent. She ain't Greek any more than some anime fan's slice-of-life fanfiction. Some writers really did put the research in, but frankly it doesn't translate to the broader DCU because she's just written as having come out of a Ray Harryhausen movie (which, again, cool but not really authentic). This is one such take.

    Why was Medusa used? Because it fits her aesthetic and she's a mythological monster who Diana can fight. She also was involved in a murder mystery in Tir na Nog a few years back. You going to tell me she's also Irish now?

    You're right, she does have an original text: All Star Comics #8, and like with all DC characters, it's not sacred. There's no doubt she borrows heavily from Greco-Roman mythology, but that's it. She borrows. Her narrative is very, very American.
    Superman is based on a whole host of characters tarzan,doc savage, zorro,.... Etc. Even then, i had a debate on the dc forums. Where i said superman if need be(In the face of oppression ) would take his people(people that want to leave, "monsters", defective and non defective manmade beings, meta humans and aliens) to a promised land,Fighting whomever(even the US government). Superman isn't a jewish slave born in egypt. He however has the slave who breaks chains metaphor in spades.The guy is also based on gladiators. So, if you go by that metaphor. I would have no problems. But, i suspect others might not like it.

    There is a difference between taking inspiration and basing a character on a particular background.Was it intentionally done so? I mean, WW's stories being only losely tied to the greeks. Or is it because their lack of knowledge of culture? If its the later, then i would say someone using those stories as a base wouldn't be wrong. For example, Rama, sun wukong,.. Etc being used in dc. The intention is entirely to base the character from the original lore.But, they had no idea about the characters so they flunked the execution.many things like Fate apocrypha, smite games.. Etc use these stories. Yet, they atleast do a modicum of research . And Even if ww is only losely tied. Who decides what to take and what not to take?So, since there isn't such guidelines. A writer could simply decide to write a story where ww has donkey ears or drowns to death looking at her own beauty or something. Also, rama was portrayed in her books as well. Doesn't mean she became indian. Having characters from other backgrounds doesn't negate the protagonist's own larger context. Themiscyra is from ancient Greek lore.

    Another thing that i find really fascinating about WW. She has no problem being bound. For superman, it would be a huge struggle to accept and accommodate.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 06-22-2020 at 01:49 AM.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by The World View Post
    The only thing I've read of Dead Earth was the scene where she used turned his skull into flail which I thought looked kind of cool.

    Meh I can find instances where the Superman writers did Wonder Woman dirty, like him snapping her neck with the lasso of truth in that World Finest story line. It goes both ways. Part of Diana's makeup as a character is that she is his physical equal.

    I'm really only bothered by obvious cases of jobbing like the Batman nonsense.

    If anything I think it's intriguing that all these years after Superman got the most signifcant power level cut of any cape character with the Byrne reboot yet still maintained in position of being the measuring stick. Really puts into perspective what a beast he was during the Pre-Crisis Years.
    I suppose the pawer down scaled most bricks down accordingly or at least just brought supes down to only being top of that teir

    He wasn't what he was, but before that he was well beyond everyone really

    And he's powered back up somewhat since

    In terms of raw brute power he's still the industry measure I feel

  5. #80
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    I guess ww fans get retrubution for all the times supermans uses diana as a personal sex trophy and demeans her to sheer sex fodder compared to supes in other stories.
    Last edited by SpideyCeo; 06-22-2020 at 10:24 AM.

  6. #81
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpideyCeo View Post
    I guess ww fans get retrubution for all the times supermans uses diana as a personal sex trophy and demeans her to sheer sex fodder compared to supes in other stories.
    Turning WW into an OOC cold blooded murderer isn't exactly the retribution most Wonder Woman fans would actually want.

    And the sex trophy stories aren't exactly beloved by Superman fans (Frank Miller, Injustice) or doing him any favors, so that seems like misplaced blame.

  7. #82
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpideyCeo View Post
    I guess ww fans get retrubution for all the times supermans uses diana as a personal sex trophy and demeans her to sheer sex fodder compared to supes in other stories.
    Yeah! When has that happened?
    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Turning WW into an OOC cold blooded murderer isn't exactly the retribution most Wonder Woman fans would actually want.

    And the sex trophy stories aren't exactly beloved by Superman fans (Frank Miller, Injustice) or doing him any favors, so that seems like misplaced blame.
    Injustice i can kind of understand(even there clark dates ww. He just wasn't over lois. I don't think he will ever be over what happened ) . But, darkknight superman used ww as sex trophy? I didn't know or remember that.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 06-22-2020 at 10:37 AM.

  8. #83
    Incredible Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    She has a base in those stories and does draw from the iconography from it, time to time. Why else would medusa be even used? Let's see, if i create a character named "isanami" drawing heavily from shinto japanese folklore. My character would have an "original text".
    Taking inspiration doesn't mean one should be confined by it, especially since in WW's case much of her conceptual basis as a character were on subversions of original Greek mythology.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpideyCeo View Post
    I guess ww fans get retrubution for all the times supermans uses diana as a personal sex trophy and demeans her to sheer sex fodder compared to supes in other stories.
    When was that exactly? Regardless, I hate those stories where the hero is a villain. I don't care if it's Elseworlds, Metal, or anything else, it's a trope that's been done to death, and wasn't all that great the first time.

  10. #85

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    Didn't read, but sounds like a crazy and tragic mass murdering Wonder Woman using Superman's spine as a whip would fit right in on those dark multiverse/Dark Nights Metal things dc has been working on.

  11. #86
    Astonishing Member Soubhagya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    I only read the first issue, but other than taking place in continuity with Miller's Dark Knight stuff and written by him, how is it a Batman spin off?
    I think you won't be surprised to know that Batman does appear in the third issue. They wouldn't leave even a Superman origin/year one alone without Batman showing up. I am getting sick of that rodent.

    What's laughable is that Miller does a Batman v Superman. Luthor causes a Batman and Superman fight. Which is stopped by Wonder Woman turning up.

    Regardless of how directionless the whole thing feels, its still a Superman Black Label book. My 1st thought is indeed there seems to be no Superman black label book. And my second thought is why is it always the origin? I get that Superman has perhaps the best origin in comics. But aren't writers interested in exploring more?

  12. #87
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    According to Miller, the government doggy superman, the superman who takes the beating, is not because he hates superman, but because it is a Batman story. but in this comic he would tell a story of superman and thus show his love for the character. To demonstrate that love, he chooses possibly the most hated superman by fans, and he humiliated superman over and over again in the original comics because it was a batman story but, in the superman story, I don't see him humiliating batman. i don't understand how dc can let this guy get close to superman.

  13. #88
    Astonishing Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaVi View Post
    According to Miller, the government doggy superman, the superman who takes the beating, is not because he hates superman, but because it is a Batman story. but in this comic he would tell a story of superman and thus show his love for the character. To demonstrate that love, he chooses possibly the most hated superman by fans, and he humiliated superman over and over again in the original comics because it was a batman story but, in the superman story, I don't see him humiliating batman. i don't understand how dc can let this guy get close to superman.
    Because people buy his books, and he said "I want to write a Superman book."

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Because people buy his books, and he said "I want to write a Superman book."
    Aunque hay muchas razones por las que superman no es lo que era,este hombre es una de las razones,que dc le siga permitiendo escribir a superman,demuestra no solo el personaje les importa 0,si no también que lo único que buscan es ganancia inmediata,y al futuro que le den,al igual que hicieron en el cine,mientras marvel se arriesgaba y creo lentamente un universo,dc se escondía y solo se mostró cuando quedó claro que había dinero,y ahora van por las sobras de marvel.

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