Legacy vs Original Characters

[Samm]

Future State is just giving us even more hand me down doppelgänger characters! Most of the time legacy characters just suck! I prefer original characters because they don’t have to compete with another version for development, stories and adaptions. They also don’t have to wait in line because they weren’t the first one. So I 100% prefer original characters

Black Lightning, Static, Cyborg, Vixen, Bumblebee, Icon, Herald, Rocket > John Stewart, Jo Mullien, Mr Terrific, Nubia, Calvin Ellis, Val Zod...etc

Fire, Vibe, Renee Montoya, El Dorado, Dawnstar, Arak, Apache Chief, Sideways > Blue Beetle, Jessica Cruz, Kyle Rayner, Yara Flor...etc

Katana, Samurai, Xombi, August General, Karate Kid, Windshear, Thirteen > Cassandra Cain, Atom, Omac, Dr Light, Super-Man...etc

In terms of actually diversifying the DCU and creating original characters that stand on their own, without having to rely on a popular White character. Unfortunately DC gives far more development to the characters on the right than the ones on the left, which makes their universe seem so small, especially in comparison to Marvel with their more unique diverse characters

[DrNewGod]

For me it’s a character by character basis.

Mr. Terrific? Michael Holt is my guy. I find him more interesting than Terry.

The Atom? Ray Palmer is my guy. I find Ray a lot more interesting than Ryan.

The Flash? Jay, Wally, Barry, in that order.

I am not one over the other, it’s completely in the character and the teams behind those characters.

I may not agree with his Flash order, I am otherwise ready to go to war at Jekyll's command on this topic.

[skyvolt2000]

was he ever tagged as "Chinese Superman"? I could've sworn he's only ever been "New Super-Man". regardless, just like when people wanna complain about Black Lightning having black in his name (and expressing saying it's not the color but the race), there is nothing wrong or insulting with characters being called what they are. people get locked in on that trope and forget that the reason people felt a type of way about explicitly stating their race/nationality was that it used to be that characters of color were boiled down to just that part and played into those stereotypes. and just like with Black Lightning, this is not that because while Kenan is Chinese, Chinese culture IS a big part of his character, he is not limited by that fact nor is it used as an excuse to play into stereotypes; Kenan was created and primary written by a Taiwanese creator, I think he knew what he was doing.

I don't think the people who'd be turned off by him being called "Chinese Superman" when the title says "New Super-Man" were all that interested in the book in the first place. that may be a bit too much of an assumption but it's the only reason I could see for something that trivial.

I don't think so.

The one thing about that book is it took awhile for numbers to drop on it and the first trade actually did well for DC.

I think more folks were interested in that book than Cyborg's book.

[Gaius]

No real particular preference. Of DC's two main "legacy" characters, Barry and Wally are kind of interchangeable to me as the Flash and while I prefer Hal far and away of the GLs, I'll read any good-reviewed GL content.

Though I don't really consider GL a legacy character.

[PCN24454]

I would love if time could actually pass inside the DC universe but I feel like that's not going to happen.

[Agent Z]

Future State is just giving us even more hand me down doppelgänger characters! Most of the time legacy characters just suck! I prefer original characters because they don’t have to compete with another version for development, stories and adaptions. They also don’t have to wait in line because they weren’t the first one. So I 100% prefer original characters

Black Lightning, Static, Cyborg, Vixen, Bumblebee, Icon, Herald, Rocket > John Stewart, Jo Mullien, Mr Terrific, Nubia, Calvin Ellis, Val Zod...etc

Fire, Vibe, Renee Montoya, El Dorado, Dawnstar, Arak, Apache Chief, Sideways > Blue Beetle, Jessica Cruz, Kyle Rayner, Yara Flor...etc

Katana, Samurai, Xombi, August General, Karate Kid, Windshear, Thirteen > Cassandra Cain, Atom, Omac, Dr Light, Super-Man...etc

In terms of actually diversifying the DCU and creating original characters that stand on their own, without having to rely on a popular White character. Unfortunately DC gives far more development to the characters on the right than the ones on the left, which makes their universe seem so small, especially in comparison to Marvel with their more unique diverse characters

The characters on the left are not inherently better than the right just because they aren't legacies. I like Vibe as he is now but he is in no way better than Jamie or Jessica especially when you take his original depiction into account. Cassandra Cain is the first female minority at DC to get an ongoing and proved Batgirl could hold a solo of her own. Saying that Samurai, a racist stereotype from an outdated cartoon, is better than her is laughable. Ditto for Apache Chief. Nubia wasn't created as a legacy and Vixen is hardly ever used to be considered better than John or Mr. Terrific. Speaking of Mr. Terrific, while he is a legacy he has easily eclipsed his predecessor in popularity so your complaints don't apply to him. John Stewart is a lot more liked by casuals than Hal Jordan. Yara Flor hasn't been revealed yet so time will tell. Karate Kid wasn't even originally Asian.

All of these characters have their strengths and weaknesses.

[Holt]

Future State is just giving us even more hand me down doppelgänger characters! Most of the time legacy characters just suck! I prefer original characters because they don’t have to compete with another version for development, stories and adaptions. They also don’t have to wait in line because they weren’t the first one. So I 100% prefer original characters

Black Lightning, Static, Cyborg, Vixen, Bumblebee, Icon, Herald, Rocket > John Stewart, Jo Mullien, Mr Terrific, Nubia, Calvin Ellis, Val Zod...etc

Fire, Vibe, Renee Montoya, El Dorado, Dawnstar, Arak, Apache Chief, Sideways > Blue Beetle, Jessica Cruz, Kyle Rayner, Yara Flor...etc

Katana, Samurai, Xombi, August General, Karate Kid, Windshear, Thirteen > Cassandra Cain, Atom, Omac, Dr Light, Super-Man...etc

In terms of actually diversifying the DCU and creating original characters that stand on their own, without having to rely on a popular White character. Unfortunately DC gives far more development to the characters on the right than the ones on the left, which makes their universe seem so small, especially in comparison to Marvel with their more unique diverse characters

The characters on the left are not inherently better than the right just because they aren't legacies. I like Vibe as he is now but he is in no way better than Jamie or Jessica especially when you take his original depiction into account. Cassandra Cain is the first female minority at DC to get an ongoing and proved Batgirl could hold a solo of her own. Saying that Samurai, a racist stereotype from an outdated cartoon, is better than her is laughable. Ditto for Apache Chief. Nubia wasn't created as a legacy and Vixen is hardly ever used to be considered better than John or Mr. Terrific. Speaking of Mr. Terrific, while he is a legacy he has easily eclipsed his predecessor in popularity so your complaints don't apply to him. John Stewart is a lot more liked by casuals than Hal Jordan. Yara Flor hasn't been revealed yet so time will tell. Karate Kid wasn't even originally Asian.

All of these characters have their strengths and weaknesses.

It's also dubious and subjective. I'd certainly take Casssandra Cain over August General and Windshear (who?) any day. Ditto Blue Beetle, Jessica Cruz and Kyle Rayner over fucking El Dorado (seriously?) lol.

[Samm]

You both missed my point entirely! The characters on the left are all ORIGINAL characters and owners of their own mythology, support cast, namesake...etc. They don’t have a White character to contend with for usage! But hey if y’all are ok with hand me downs and DC continuously building up “Mexican Blue Beetle” (where is he btw? Seems like DC went back to Ted lol), Asian Batgirl (Barbara took back the name, oops), Black/Mexican Green Lantern (Hal is the one with the solo and in promotional shots) then be my guest! I just think DC is better off making original diverse characters and developing them... El Dorado, Apache Chief, and Samurai are currently racial caricatures but only because DC refuses to develop them in favor of giving us another “diverse” Super/Bat/Lantern/Flash/Whatever character.

You can build on El Dorado with Mexican/Mesoamerican mythology, Samurai with Japanese mythology and Apache Chief with Apache mythology... but of course that would require more work so DC would never do it even if it’d pay off in the long run with them all being their own characters/franchises

Edit: Mr Terrific is the exception to the rule in that he became more popular than the previous iteration. Can’t say the same for the other legacies, even if some of them are popular...

[Agent Z]

You both missed my point entirely! The characters on the left are all ORIGINAL characters and owners of their own mythology, support cast, namesake...etc. They don’t have a White character to contend with for usage!

Of course they do. Legacy characters aren't the only type that has to compete with white characters. Every time they launch five Bat books is a missed opportunity to promote Black Lightning or Vibe.

But hey if y’all are ok with hand me downs and DC continuously building up “Mexican Blue Beetle” (where is he btw? Seems like DC went back to Ted lol),

Jaime is featured in the YJ show and will be in a Death Metal Titans story. Ted hasn't been seen since the 2016 Blue Beetle series he was sharing with Jaime.

Asian Batgirl (Barbara took back the name, oops),

Didn't stop Cass from coming back.

Black/Mexican Green Lantern (Hal is the one with the solo and in promotional shots) then be my guest!

John is on the Justice League and Jessica will be in a Green Lantern animated series.

I just think DC is better off making original diverse characters and developing them... El Dorado, Apache Chief, and Samurai are currently racial caricatures but only because DC refuses to develop them in favor of giving us another “diverse” Super/Bat/Lantern/Flash/Whatever character.

The legacies are original characters.

You can build on El Dorado with Mexican/Mesoamerican mythology, Samurai with Japanese mythology and Apache Chief with Apache mythology... but of course that would require more work so DC would never do it even if it’d pay off in the long run with them all being their own characters/franchises

It's not a binary choice. Or at least it shouldn't be.

[WebLurker]

You both missed my point entirely! The characters on the left are all ORIGINAL characters and owners of their own mythology, support cast, namesake...etc. They don’t have a White character to contend with for usage! But hey if y’all are ok with hand me downs and DC continuously building up “Mexican Blue Beetle” (where is he btw? Seems like DC went back to Ted lol), Asian Batgirl (Barbara took back the name, oops), Black/Mexican Green Lantern (Hal is the one with the solo and in promotional shots) then be my guest! I just think DC is better off making original diverse characters and developing them... El Dorado, Apache Chief, and Samurai are currently racial caricatures but only because DC refuses to develop them in favor of giving us another “diverse” Super/Bat/Lantern/Flash/Whatever character.

You can build on El Dorado with Mexican/Mesoamerican mythology, Samurai with Japanese mythology and Apache Chief with Apache mythology... but of course that would require more work so DC would never do it even if it’d pay off in the long run with them all being their own characters/franchises

But some of us care about those legacies, not other characters. (and some of those characters do well in adaptations)

Edit: Mr Terrific is the exception to the rule in that he became more popular than the previous iteration. Can’t say the same for the other legacies, even if some of them are popular...

And, if you hop onto Marvel, you also got Nick Fury.

[Adekis]

I like both I guess. It's easier to get legacy characters to take off I suppose but I love characters like Bunker or Aztek who just come out of nowhere and are awesome.

[Stanlos]

There was an interesting debate going on in the 5G thread that I think warrants it’s own thread and discussion. Basically, while all agreed that diversity is important, many disagreed on how to go about it. Some argued that legacy is the only way to introduce new diverse characters and have them stick, while others argued original characters not attached to another heroes mantle was the way to go. What do you think?

Here are some numbers:

LEGACY
Kyle Rayner (182 solo issues)
John Stewart (80 solo issues)
Batgirl (79 solo issues)
Blue Beetle (72 solo issues)
Jessica Cruz (56 solo issues)
Firestorm (56 solo issues)
Simon Baz (54 solo issues)
Connor Hawke (36 solo issues)
*Batwing (35 solo issues)
*El Diablo (34 solo issues)
The Atom (26 solo issues)
Super-Man (24 solo issues)
Dr Fate (18 solo issues)

*Two versions share that number.

ORIGINAL
Static (59 solo issues)
Arak (56 solo issues)
Steel (53 solo issues)
Hardware (50 solo issues)
Cyborg (42 solo issues)
Icon (41 solo issues)
Black Lightning (36 solo issues)
Xombi (28 solo issues)
Katana (22 solo issues)
Silencer (18 solo issues)
Kobalt (16 solo issues)
Sideways (13 solo issues)
Voodoo (12 solo issues)

Just some numbers I’ve gathered to compare success rate in leading solo stories between legacy and non legacy heroes. Seems like it’s a race to see who gets to the century mark first! Though I didn’t add Kyle Rayner who is well past the century mark, since his inclusion would be quite controversial. What do you prefer? Legacy? Or Original mantles?

It really depends on how well it is done. For example, there is nothing in the Trinity's designs that precludes their being visually representative of other demographics. In the case of Bats and WW it might serve as an effective update from a modernization standpoint regarding their origins. Superman is an alien so you have a great deal of latitude there.

[Samm]

But some of us care about those legacies, not other characters. (and some of those characters do well in adaptations)



And, if you hop onto Marvel, you also got Nick Fury.

My view is that legacy characters will never be the owner of the franchise they’re taking over. Ryan Choi will always have to contend with Ray Palmer, Jaime Reyes will always have to contend with Ted Kord, Jason with Ronnie, Jessica/John with Hal...etc. It’s laziness on DC’s part. Instead of building up a new character and mythology, they’d rather hijack another character and make doppelgänger characters but they’re Black/Brown/Asian now!

I’m just not a fan of legacy and it’s a HUGE reason why the DCU feels so small and cluttered! You have so many doppelgänger characters running around (same powers and everything), only difference is race and name. Ridiculous and shows lack of creativity!

[Samm]

Of course they do. Legacy characters aren't the only type that has to compete with white characters. Every time they launch five Bat books is a missed opportunity to promote Black Lightning or Vibe.


Jaime is featured in the YJ show and will be in a Death Metal Titans story. Ted hasn't been seen since the 2016 Blue Beetle series he was sharing with Jaime.


Didn't stop Cass from coming back.



John is on the Justice League and Jessica will be in a Green Lantern animated series.



The legacies are original characters.



It's not a binary choice. Or at least it shouldn't be.

Legacies also have to contend with the 5-10 Bat books, on top of the White character (and their fanbase) they replaced so I don’t see your point.

Ted Kord has been in the Suicide Squad, Heroes In Crisis, Dark Multiverse, Dead Planet...etc as well as in a lot of the group shots. Jaime hasn’t been in much. The White character took his namesake back.

Yeah Cass came back, but not as Batgirl. She doesn’t have a book and is relegated to team member status. My point still stands. The White character took her namesake back.

Yet Hal is the one with the solo series with a big name! Also that GL series also stars Sinestro, Alan, and Guy... so what’s your point?

Legacies aren’t original characters. They’re copycats created to bring diversity to an otherwise mostly White DCU. Majority of the time they have the same power set, look, name...etc. That’s not original!

[Agent Z]

Legacies also have to contend with the 5-10 Bat books, on top of the White character (and their fanbase) they replaced so I don’t see your point.

The point it that contending with a white character is something every poc has to deal with. If anything, being a legacy helps more than hinders given how popular Holt, John and Jaime just to name a few are.

Ted Kord has been in the Suicide Squad, Heroes In Crisis, Dark Multiverse, Dead Planet...etc as well as in a lot of the group shots. Jaime hasn’t been in much. The White character took his namesake back.

Most of Ted's appearances in Suicide Squad was Black Mask impersonating him. Dead Planet and Dark Multiverse are Elseworlds. Being in Heroes in Crisis is nothing to brag about. And again, you ignore that Jaime is in far more media including the Young Justice show and the Injustice games and still uses the Blue Beetle name. The white character did not take his name back. He's sharing it with his more popular replacement.

Yeah Cass came back, but not as Batgirl. She doesn’t have a book and is relegated to team member status.

So what? Most of the non-legacies you claim are so superior never had a solo book and are barely even used in teams. Cass is also being frequently used which is more than can be said for the likes of Samurai and Windshear.

Yet Hal is the one with the solo series with a big name! Also that GL series also stars Sinestro, Alan, and Guy... so what’s your point?

That being a legacy is not hindering poc characters. Which do you think has more eyes on it; a t.v. show or a comic?

Legacies aren’t original characters.

They have different names, personalities, faces, sometimes different races, backstories etc.