Legacy vs Original Characters

[Samm]

The point it that contending with a white character is something every poc has to deal with. If anything, being a legacy helps more than hinders given how popular Holt, John and Jaime just to name a few are.



Most of Ted's appearances in Suicide Squad was Black Mask impersonating him. Dead Planet and Dark Multiverse are Elseworlds. Being in Heroes in Crisis is nothing to brag about. And again, you ignore that Jaime is in far more media including the Young Justice show and the Injustice games and still uses the Blue Beetle name. The white character did not take his name back. He's sharing it with his more popular replacement.



So what? Most of the non-legacies you claim are so superior never had a solo book and are barely even used in teams. Cass is also being frequently used which is more than can be said for the likes of Samurai and Windshear.



That being a legacy is not hindering poc characters. Which do you think has more eyes on it; a t.v. show or a comic?



Yes they are if they're created by the damn company.

Sorry but I’m not ok with these doppelgänger characters! I’d rather have original diverse characters who OWN their own name, mythology, history...etc

Characters like Black Lightning, Static, Vixen, Bumblebee, Cyborg, Arak, Dawnstar, Vibe, Fire, Katana, Xombi, Voodoo...etc that’s TRUE diversity! Those are characters that own their name, mythology...etc and don’t have to worry about a White character coming in and taking the name back like Cass, Jaime, Jessica, John...etc do.

Marvel’s most popular POC are original characters who own their name and mythology, DC’s most popular POC characters are legacies who borrow the name and mythology from a White character and eventually end up giving it back. You don’t see the problem with that? Original all the way!!

[Holt]

Sorry but I’m not ok with these doppelgänger characters!!

It doesn't matter if you are. They still exist and have fans regardless. Your opinion is not fact, so I don't why all your responses in this thread are so hilariously over the top.

[Samm]

It doesn't matter if you are. They still exist and have fans regardless. Your opinion is not fact, so I don't why all your responses in this thread are so hilariously over the top.

They can have their fans. Doesn’t change the fact that they don’t own the name they took over and the White character always takes it back.

[Holt]

They can have their fans. Doesn’t change the fact that they don’t own the name they took over and the White character always takes it back.

Nor does it change the fact that many of the original characters you mentioned also aren't appearing anywhere while many of the legacies are.

I guess that El Dorado and Vibe team-up book should be fun though!

[skyvolt2000]

Sorry but I’m not ok with these doppelgänger characters! I’d rather have original diverse characters who OWN their own name, mythology, history...etc
Characters like Black Lightning, Static, Vixen, Bumblebee, Cyborg, Arak, Dawnstar, Vibe, Fire, Katana, Xombi, Voodoo...etc that’s TRUE diversity!

True diversity that very few folks are willing to use. Despite the first four listed being on tv shows with the first 3 STARRING in their own tv shows.

Marvel’s most popular POC are original characters who own their name and mythology, DC’s most popular POC characters are legacies who borrow the name and mythology from a White character and eventually end up giving it back. You don’t see the problem with that? Original all the way!!

Here is what you are missing and Holt is trying to get you to understand-at Marvel SOMEONE and I do mean SOMEONE was willing to do something with an original character. Even if it meant fighting editors. That was NOT the case at DC and as we are learning from former editors-it was a toxic environment for POC NOT owned by Milestone.

Here is the difference between Marvel & DC-

Marvel had Larry Hama, Priest, Jackie Ching and REST HIS SOUL Dwayne McDuffie as editors.
They also had books like Marvel Comics Present and Solo Avengers.
They paid folks like Tony Isabella to write stories for Rocket Racer to be tossed in random books.

How many books with POC at Marvel had Priest or McDuffie as the writer or editor?

What does Synch, Prodigy, Eli Bradley, Blade and Night Thrasher have in common? They are the ONLY black males McDuffie never wrote before his death. At DC it was Bumblebee, Mr Terrific, Guardian, Mr Miracle 2, Amazing Man 1-3, Hotspot and Bloodwynd.

Where were the folks at Dc fighting for original POC? Like Gail Simone? Who got rejected when she tried to use one for Birds of Prey.

It's hard to use original POC when you keep reusing the SAME writers who toss in their PETS. Hi Johns and Lobdell.

Going by what Williams said about the negative reaction he got for making Impulse a seller-DC did not care unless it was their pet favorites.

If you are in an environment like that what are you going to do to be diverse? If Legacy is the less of a issue-you go that way.

[lemonpeace]

They can have their fans. Doesn’t change the fact that they don’t own the name they took over and the White character always takes it back.

or, and hear me out, maybe the problem isn't the characters taking the name but bad management taking the name back. Your argument that legacy are somehow inferior to original still does not counter the fact that characters like Mr. Terrific, Cassandra Cain, Miles Morales, Captain Marvel, and Ms. Marvel exist. so to pretend like because they share a name the character is lesser is illogical, it's a matter of what DC does with these characters once they are created. squabbling over what color the house gonna be is a moot point if it don't get built whether it's red or blue, ya dig? word to McDuffie that's a hyper-rationalization, it's a gaslight, a convoluted train of thought that doesn't do anything for these characters of color besides provide excuses that make it harder normalize the presence of characters of color. by that logic, John Stewart is lesser than the Brown Bomber because he's an not original character? Fu man chu > Cassandra Cain? respectfully, you'd have to be blowing dust to believe that (not saying you in particular are). hell, Hal and Barry are legacies but they cool because they not characters of color?

[DrNewGod]

or, and hear me out, maybe the problem isn't the characters taking the name but bad management taking the name back. Your argument that legacy are somehow inferior to original still does not counter the fact that characters like Mr. Terrific, Cassandra Cain, Miles Morales, Captain Marvel, and Ms. Marvel exist. so to pretend like because they share a name the character is lesser is illogical, it's a matter of what DC does with these characters once they are created. squabbling over what color the house gonna be is a moot point if it don't get built whether it's red or blue, ya dig? word to McDuffie that's a hyper-rationalization, it's a gaslight, a convoluted train of thought that doesn't do anything for these characters of color besides provide excuses that make it harder normalize the presence of characters of color. by that logic, John Stewart is lesser than the Brown Bomber because he's an not original character? Fu man chu > Cassandra Cain? respectfully, you'd have to be blowing dust to believe that (not saying you in particular are). hell, Hal and Barry are legacies but they cool because they not characters of color?

First up, I'm cool with everything you say except the underlined. Having no prior connection to his Golden Age counterpart other than name he appropriated, Hal is not a legacy. Barry arguably is, as he was inspired by Jay, and the same is true of Mr. Terrific v. Sloane.

[Stanlos]

First up, I'm cool with everything you say except the underlined. Having no prior connection to his Golden Age counterpart other than name he appropriated, Hal is not a legacy. Barry arguably is, as he was inspired by Jay, and the same is true of Mr. Terrific v. Sloane.

If you wish to ignore history and the original Green Lantern, then what about the fact that Hal inherited the ring when Abin Sur died; that there literally a Corps of thousands of Green Lanterns. So he is one in a long line but it's not a legacy post? Flash is even when you look at history and only slightly better when you look at actual in-story continuity. There may not have a been a long standing authority or organization that made rules for the legacy but the in story discussion and interaction between Jay, Barry, Jesse, Bart, Xs, red head Wally and others I forget like the blue and white suit guy all indicate it is a legacy.

What did you see that indicates it was not?

[Samm]

Nor does it change the fact that many of the original characters you mentioned also aren't appearing anywhere while many of the legacies are.

I guess that El Dorado and Vibe team-up book should be fun though!

And that’s just sad. Thea best a Latino can hope for is Mexican/Latino 2nd rate versions of White characters? Lol I look forward to Superman but he’s Mexican, Batman but he’s Puerto Rican, Wonder Woman but she’s Braz...wait that’s already happening.

At least El Dorado and Vibe own their namesake, mythology and history. Blue Beetle doesn’t start with Jaime, and it likely won’t end with him either. Green Lantern doesn’t start with Jessica and it doesn’t end with her either as 3 more have popped up since her creation (Tai, Jo, Keli)... Original is always better, signifies more creativity and critical thinking/research went into their creation

[Stanlos]

And that’s just sad. Thea best a Latino can hope for is Mexican/Latino 2nd rate versions of White characters? Lol I look forward to Superman but he’s Mexican, Batman but he’s Puerto Rican, Wonder Woman but she’s Braz...wait that’s already happening.

At least El Dorado and Vibe own their namesake, mythology and history. Blue Beetle doesn’t start with Jaime, and it likely won’t end with him either. Green Lantern doesn’t start with Jessica and it doesn’t end with her either as 3 more have popped up since her creation (Tai, Jo, Keli)... Original is always better, signifies more creativity and critical thinking/research went into their creation

That last part about creativity and research you may want to fact check. There are several books on comic book history that specifically detail the way a number of the classics were created. You may be in for a shock on those two points.

[Holt]

Original is always better

In your opinion. Just repeating the same thing over and over doesn't make it so.

At least El Dorado and Vibe own their namesake, mythology and history

That and five bucks will get them a cup of coffee.

[KC]

True diversity that very few folks are willing to use. Despite the first four listed being on tv shows with the first 3 STARRING in their own tv shows.



Here is what you are missing and Holt is trying to get you to understand-at Marvel SOMEONE and I do mean SOMEONE was willing to do something with an original character. Even if it meant fighting editors. That was NOT the case at DC and as we are learning from former editors-it was a toxic environment for POC NOT owned by Milestone.

Here is the difference between Marvel & DC-

Marvel had Larry Hama, Priest, Jackie Ching and REST HIS SOUL Dwayne McDuffie as editors.
They also had books like Marvel Comics Present and Solo Avengers.
They paid folks like Tony Isabella to write stories for Rocket Racer to be tossed in random books.

How many books with POC at Marvel had Priest or McDuffie as the writer or editor?

What does Synch, Prodigy, Eli Bradley, Blade and Night Thrasher have in common? They are the ONLY black males McDuffie never wrote before his death. At DC it was Bumblebee, Mr Terrific, Guardian, Mr Miracle 2, Amazing Man 1-3, Hotspot and Bloodwynd.

Where were the folks at Dc fighting for original POC? Like Gail Simone? Who got rejected when she tried to use one for Birds of Prey.

It's hard to use original POC when you keep reusing the SAME writers who toss in their PETS. Hi Johns and Lobdell.

Going by what Williams said about the negative reaction he got for making Impulse a seller-DC did not care unless it was their pet favorites.

If you are in an environment like that what are you going to do to be diverse? If Legacy is the less of a issue-you go that way.

That's because writers like Johns and his "pets" make DC money.

It doesn't have to be a one or the other thing where DC either uses original POC Characters or hires writers like Johns to write characters they want. Both can happen at the same time.

[Sacred Knight]

Always preferred original. If anything the legacy characters have started to annoy me more and more. Especially since Rebirth and their complete oversaturation of legacy for everything. Omissions from that include characters like Supergirl and Superboy (Conner). Types that are in the family but have always operated largely as their own thing and rarely get beaten over your head as potential successors. I also don't count Wally because he's the only example of a long-term success story, and Dick because he's the OG sidekick whose long-time dynamic with Bruce has more than earned the occaisonal consideration, and only then its when necessary as its always hammered home that he's developed his own, unique identity.

[Holt]

That's because writers like Johns and his "pets" make DC money.

People don't like to acknowledge that whenever this debate comes up. As much as people scream till they're blue in the face that original characters trump legacies, show me any new wholly new DC character the last decade who has gotten anywhere near the play Jessica Cruz has. Same could be said for most of the attempts at new characters from Jaime Reyes' generation (hey remember Breach? The Monolith? No?).

[Ra-El]

If you wish to ignore history and the original Green Lantern, then what about the fact that Hal inherited the ring when Abin Sur died; that there literally a Corps of thousands of Green Lanterns. So he is one in a long line but it's not a legacy post? Flash is even when you look at history and only slightly better when you look at actual in-story continuity. There may not have a been a long standing authority or organization that made rules for the legacy but the in story discussion and interaction between Jay, Barry, Jesse, Bart, Xs, red head Wally and others I forget like the blue and white suit guy all indicate it is a legacy.

What did you see that indicates it was not?

Saying that Hal is Abin Sur legacy is like saying that Clark is Jor-El's, Diana is Hipolyta's, Carter Hall is Ktar's, Arthur is Atlanna's, etc. Abin Sur only function was to give Hal his ring and die like Jor-El's was to put Superman on the ship and die.
Those characters were never the main characters, they never lead the franchise, they were created only as part of the origin story of the main heroes. I don't know if Hal and barry are legacies or rebuts, but if Hal is some character legacy, is definitely Alan Scott's legacy, not Abin Sur.