Superman vs Thragg

[Cronus]

The point being this retcon, such as it is, doesnt change the fact that earlier even when the speed force permitted time travel, it only did so once you crossed the light barrier

To say it was the speed force that allowed Flashes to time travel earlier is then to ignore the times it didnt, just because they failed to cross lightspeed

That it now altogether doesnt allow anybody doesnt change the mechanics of when it did allow, it only allowed the FTL ones not just anybody with the speedforce

Not much I can add that DK hasn't touched on, but yeah, Chain Lightning was explicit about the difference between Wally and his cohort speedsters. Time travel for Flashes is involved because there is a speed component and a vibratory component. Both have to exist at extraordinarily high rates for time travel to take place. But yeah, in that story the other speedsters could not make the time jump without the aid of the cosmic treadmill and none were FTL but Wally.

[Superfan90]

No chain lightning shows you can time travel without being FTL

Since you mentioned Johns, in JSA a few years after Chain lightning we know Jay still isnt FTL, just like he wasnt in chain lightning. Johns wrote this

Johns also wrote JSA years later showing the treadmill allows Jay to keep doing stuff he cant with just his own speed

All this leads to the conclusion that the below Light speed Jay can achieve time travel and dimensional travel through the treadmill, things he cant do on his own

Therefore superman time travelling with the treadmill isn't proof of him being FTL

But that's your assumption. Jay crossing over to another universe doesn't mean he can travel in time. And even Johns wrote Jay as lightspeed, not below it.

[Superfan90]

The point being this retcon, such as it is, doesnt change the fact that earlier even when the speed force permitted time travel, it only did so once you crossed the light barrier

To say it was the speed force that allowed Flashes to time travel earlier is then to ignore the times it didnt, just because they failed to cross lightspeed

That it now altogether doesnt allow anybody doesnt change the mechanics of when it did allow, it only allowed the FTL ones not just anybody with the speedforce

This honestly made no sense to me. If you think below lightspeed can allow time travel via cosmic treadmill after Johns, please share proof.

[The Dork Knight]

But that's your assumption. Jay crossing over to another universe doesn't mean he can travel in time. And even Johns wrote Jay as lightspeed, not below it.

https://i.postimg.cc/tTVmcxJM/RCO007.jpg

[The Dork Knight]

This honestly made no sense to me. If you think below lightspeed can allow time travel via cosmic treadmill after Johns, please share proof.

What makes no sense to me is why youd assume Johns had changed the nature of the treadmill when there doesnt seem to be any indication of the kind of change you claim

To put it another way, the burden of proof is on you. If Johns really did change the fact the below Wally speedsters could time travel ONLY via the treadmill, then show evidence of that change, something that actively contradicts Waid's run

Why should there have to be an "after Johns" when nothing you posted shows anything really changing

[The Dork Knight]

But that's your assumption. Jay crossing over to another universe doesn't mean he can travel in time. And even Johns wrote Jay as lightspeed, not below it.

Ironically, written by Johns and from a comic whose scans you already posted

https://i.postimg.cc/t4zm6bnY/image.jpg

"When time-traveling one can shift into the multiverse" (bottom right panel)

[Superfan90]

https://i.postimg.cc/tTVmcxJM/RCO007.jpg

He is talking about superluminal velocity. Because Jay almost went to speed force just two issues ago.

[Superfan90]

What makes no sense to me is why youd assume Johns had changed the nature of the treadmill when there doesnt seem to be any indication of the kind of change you claim

To put it another way, the burden of proof is on you. If Johns really did change the fact the below Wally speedsters could time travel ONLY via the treadmill, then show evidence of that change, something that actively contradicts Waid's run

Why should there have to be an "after Johns" when nothing you posted shows anything really changing

Already posted it.



Its only for precision as to where Flash want to travel.

[Superfan90]

Ironically, written by Johns and from a comic whose scans you already posted

https://i.postimg.cc/t4zm6bnY/image.jpg

"When time-traveling one can shift into the multiverse" (bottom right panel)

What does this has to do with the cosmic treadmill argument?

[The Dork Knight]

He is talking about superluminal velocity. Because Jay almost went to speed force just two issues [/img][/url]

......

I dont think you can be clearer than "light speed? No only Wally West can do that".

[The Dork Knight]

Its only for precision as to where Flash want to travel.

What the comic actually says- the cosmic treadmill can be used for precision time travelling

What you take the comic to say- the cosmic treadmill is used ONLY for precision time travelling and all the other times it boosted sub-light speedsters is irrelevant even though the word "only" was never used

Oh and then not to forget the whole point here was that they ran back through time "precisely" without the cosmic treadmill anyway, just like Wally had done soo many times

https://i.postimg.cc/RFy7dycw/image.jpg

Of course folks like Jay didn't follow Barry for some reason...

[Cronus]

So, Chain Lightning.

Flash 145.1 - Wally blitzes through time.jpg

And then....

Flash 145.2 - Wally blitzes through time.jpg

So, yeah. Pretty clear. Jay straight up says the rest of the assembled speedsters in that story could not time travel. If they can't time travel, then that means they cannot exceed light speed. Wally was routinely exceeding light speed by this time.

Not to confuse matters, but as I mentioned, even after the other speedsters were rocketed into time by the treadmill, they still needed to maintain a high vibrational rate, or they would return to the time of origin.

Flash 148.5 - maintain vibrational frequency to time travel.jpg

[Superfan90]

What the comic actually says- the cosmic treadmill can be used for precision time travelling

What you take the comic to say- the cosmic treadmill is used ONLY for precision time travelling and all the other times it boosted sub-light speedsters is irrelevant even though the word "only" was never used

You're inserting your own views in the comic without any sort of proof.

Oh and then not to forget the whole point here was that they ran back through time "precisely" without the cosmic treadmill anyway, just like Wally had done soo many times

That wasn't a point of contention.

https://i.postimg.cc/RFy7dycw/image.jpg

Of course folks like Jay didn't follow Barry for some reason...

Because Jay was in retirement at that time.

[Superfan90]

......

I dont think you can be clearer than "light speed? No only Wally West can do that".

That's an error, Terrific is asking about superluminal speed. JSA secret files straight up say that Jay is lightspeed.

[Cronus]

So, for full disclosure...and I get that this makes the whole thing confusing...yes, in DC (and Marvel) a character has to at least equal or exceed light speed to time travel. And Jay has time traveled after hitting superluminal velocity in JSA 20. But as mentioned, that was after he stole Black Adam's speed to hit the light speed barrier. He was otherwise incapable of doing that on his own at the time.

In the instance of the speedsters who could not follow Wally through the time stream in Chain Lightning, those speedsters specifically could not follow Wally through time because none of them were faster than light, or could even equal light speed at the time.

Classic Jay was faster than light.

Classic Flash 104.1 - Jay moves faster than light.jpg

But as he clearly later said in JSA (and I believe DK touched on this already, so if so...apologies), Jay wasn't light speed in JSA.

JSA, vol. 1, 20.1 - Jay cannot exceed the speed of light.jpg

To be clear then, the treadmill not only helps for precise time travel (it was hit and miss for pre Crisis Barry Allan...sometimes he needed, sometimes he didn't, but he was routinely faster than light, which also muddies the waters), it also provides a vehicle for time travel for folks who cannot travel faster than light in the first place. Clearly, that was the case in Chain Lightning. But a blanket statement of, "the cosmic treadmill only works for people who are faster than light already", is completely untrue.

At least all the way up to Final Crisis.