Superman vs Thragg

[Cody]

I always thought Jay was lightspeed....

[Cronus]

I always thought Jay was lightspeed....

There may be one in post crisis era. But I certainly wouldnt grant light speed status to Jay based on a singular showing when the majority of his top end performances post crisis are near light.

And even then, light speed doesn't automatically grant status as consistent, accurate time traveler. See action comics 591.

[Cody]

There may be one in post crisis era. But I certainly wouldnt grant light speed status to Jay based on a singular showing when the majority of his top end performances post crisis are near light.

And even then, light speed doesn't automatically grant status as consistent, accurate time traveler. See action comics 591.

Oh I'm not arguing on the time travel part. I was just told that Jay was as fast as light.

[Cronus]

Oh I'm not arguing on the time travel part. I was just told that Jay was as fast as light.

I thought I might've heard Pen say Jay had one light speed feat post crisis. I haven't read it though.

[Superfan90]

No, worthless by the terms in which this forum works; those terms of feats being a useful measure, and guidebooks, reference files and narrative blurb not being a useful measure.

And yes, “approaching”. Not achieving.


Which shows what? That slowing him by a 100,000,000 slows him to a statue? That doesn’t make him lightspeed. It doesn’t even make him a speedster (Note: I’m obviously not saying he’s not a speedster, because he clearly is - just that the evidence presented doesn’t prove that point). Because a normal person would also be a statue if their relative time was slowed by that ratio.

If he was slowed by that ratio and still able to operate at normal human speeds, then maybe we’d be demonstrating something. But it doesn’t look like that’s what’s happening in that scan.


An unspecified number of nanoseconds. Which is what you’d expect from someone operating at speeds *approaching* light-speed.


“Around Jay’s speed.” but still distinctly above. Saying “around Jay’s speed” seems a bit disingenuous, to be honest. It feels like you’re trying to make a claim that by some (not all) of these scans demonstrating Jay approaching lightspeed, we might as well just say he can more or less achieve lightspeed.

And some of those scans show something. The Hourman scan shows nothing of significance. And the secret file profile means nothing. Those files are a handy reference and a nice bit of fluff, but they’re not feats, and they’re therefore not evidence.

So let me get this straight :

1. Jay and Rival almost entered speed force which is only possible at lightspeed
2. Jay was running at near lightspeed without entering speed force
3. The writer of the comic wrote a profile which says he can run at lightspeed
4. He is shown having an entire conversation in nanoseconds

Yet he is not lightspeed. This is absurd.

[Superfan90]

Your own scans you submitted to Beadle actually contradict what you are saying.

Your first scan, the narration clearly says: "unfortunately, swiftness, even at velocities approaching the speed of light".....

Next scan, says, "a hundred billionth". You do realize a billionth of a second is a nano second yes? Ostensibly then, in order for a character to exceed light speed within the span of a billionth of a second, they must move more than 11.8 inches? Jay is actually slowed by less than this by Hourman, more proof that actually contradicts what you are saying.

Your final scan, the narrations says they, "map out a plan in nanoseconds".

Did you bother to notice that they are all standing still, which typically, is all "planning" requires?

Again, you haven't provided a shred of proof of what you're alleging, namely, Jay = light speed.

I'll repeat myself for clarity: you haven't provided an ounce of proof that Jay is light speed. The only scan I have of Jay moving at light speed is the one previously submitted from Flash comics of 1949, issue 104.

Attachment 98342

Clearly, during post crisis era, either in Wally West's books or in modern (post crisis) JSA books, Jay has lost more than a few steps.

He is not light speed.



I described Rival's speed for full context in that book. And aside from Jay describing in later issues of JSA that Rival ran into the speed force....back in 1949....you have provided literally...no evidence...not a shred...that Jay or Rival were equal to or faster than light in JSA 16 -20.

Actually I have. Here you go again.

[The Dork Knight]

So let me get this straight :

1. Jay and Rival almost entered speed force which is only possible at lightspeed

A retelling of a pre crisis story when Jay was younger

2. Jay was running at near lightspeed without entering speed force

To be precise, in his own words he could not reach lightspeed, just approach it
https://i.postimg.cc/tTVmcxJM/RCO007.jpg

3. The writer of the comic wrote a profile which says he can run at lightspeed

Statements aren't feats, least of all guidebook type statements. And even this statement is qualified with "Jay finds it harder as he is older"

Post crisis Jay is older. No wonder the only "feat"you can find is of a retelling of a pre-crisis young Jay story

4. He is shown having an entire conversation in nanoseconds

Yet he is not lightspeed. This is absurd.

By that logic, you don't even need to try to push the Superman cosmic treadmill argument since he can do stuff in attoseconds

Or, writers dont usually get exactly how small these units of time are . Exhibit A

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/up...8388-u4cZM.png

[Beadle]

So let me get this straight :

Go right ahead.

1. Jay and Rival almost entered speed force which is only possible at lightspeed

Whether or not you can enter the Speed Force at sub-luminal speeds, you yourself have just said they “almost” did it. Almost doing something is not actually doing something. See, mostly dead is still slightly alive.

2. Jay was running at near lightspeed without entering speed force

At near lightspeed. Not at lightspeed or above lightspeed. He’s still only mostly dead.

3. The writer of the comic wrote a profile which says he can run at lightspeed

Writers say a lot of things that aren’t true. One of them once attributed the title of most dangerous man on Earth to the Ten-Eyed Man. As I said earlier, these profile pieces, secret files etc are just guidebook entries by another name, and guidebooks are notoriously unreliable in their depiction / description of power levels. Which is why they’re not admissible as evidence in the Ancient Court of Rumbles Nerdology (the A.C.O.R.N., from which mighty oaks grow).

Oh, and that same scan also says that as he’s got older, Flash has found it increasingly difficult to achieve lightspeed.

So even if he could, which he can’t, he probably still couldn’t. Capeesh?

4. He is shown having an entire conversation in nanoseconds

Some nanoseconds. Some. An unspecified number thereof. I am currently typing this post in nanoseconds, albeit a rather large number of them.

But l’m not going to insist on being flippant and disingenuous here. Let’s assume we’re talking a small-ish number of nanoseconds; certainly small enough to be less than 1000 and therefore not describable using the next prefix up for seconds, i.e. micro.

How would you describe the amount of time it takes to discuss a simple plan if you were the kind of person who could travel at a significant fraction of lightspeed, i.e. near-lightspeed?

It will be a number of nanoseconds.

Yet he is not lightspeed. This is absurd.

No, this is the balance of evidence presented thus far. This is you not demonstrating lightspeed when you believe you have, and me (and others) trying to disabuse you of that misapprehension.

If you are able to find and show a number of irrefutable feats of lightspeed travel; preferably by more than one writer so that they demonstrate consistency with the character’s overall portrayal; I don’t think there’s anyone here that would refute that.

That would be churlish (and don’t call me churlish).

But you haven’t presented that evidence, so the balance of opinion remains unswayed.

[Cronus]

Actually I have. Here you go again.

Actually, you haven't. Again.

Nothing in the scans above that you submitted indicate they are running at or beyond light speed. As I said previously, Jay himself said he could not achieve the speed of light a few books later, same story.

JSA, vol. 1, 20.1 - Jay cannot exceed the speed of light.jpg

And this even after he absorbed Rival and his speed into himself. He still needed Black Adam's speed added to his own to achieve light speed.

[Cronus]

So let me get this straight :

1. Jay and Rival almost entered speed force which is only possible at lightspeed

Almost entering the speed force is not actually entering the speed force. Thank you for underscoring the fact that Jay never entered the speed force in the JSA story.

2. Jay was running at near lightspeed without entering speed force

.

Correct, and in fact, presumably is why he did not enter the speed force in that story because he only achieved close to light speeds. See the difference between near light and actually achieving light speed? Or even surpassing it? Neither of them are the same.

3. The writer of the comic wrote a profile which says he can run at lightspeed

Which counts for nothing on Rumbles threads. We do not use handbooks. Rumbles, basic rules. Read up.

4. He is shown having an entire conversation in nanoseconds

To be clear, they all stood still and conversed in nano seconds. Around here, you actually have to move beyond 11.8 inches in the span of a single nano second to be considered FTL.

They stood still. And talked. Within the span of multiple nano seconds. Clearly, nothing to indicate light speed reactions.

Yet he is not lightspeed. This is absurd.

One might draw the same conclusion about your arguments thus far as they don't add up to what you are pushing.

[The Watcher]

Official Moderator Voice

Superfan90, you are failing to abide by the rules and standards of the Rumbles Board in this thread by continuingly citing profile writeups and author statements not supported by feats as evidence, as well as insisting a character is lightspeed capable when the feats and examples you point to actually don't prove that assertation at all.

I think it would be best if you stop participating in this thread. Cease posting on it.