Superman vs Thragg

[Beadle]

That's an error, Terrific is asking about superluminal speed. JSA secret files straight up say that Jay is lightspeed.

Just so you know, we generally don’t accept guidebook entries as acceptable evidence. They’re notoriously unreliable, and will do things like describe Class 100 guys as being able to lift ‘in excess of 100 tons’ which is a tiny fraction of the hundreds of thousands of tons those guys play with.

This is why we use in-medium, high-end feats consistent with the character’s overall portrayal.

[Superfan90]

Just so you know, we generally don’t accept guidebook entries as acceptable evidence. They’re notoriously unreliable, and will do things like describe Class 100 guys as being able to lift ‘in excess of 100 tons’ which is a tiny fraction of the hundreds of thousands of tons those guys play with.

This is why we use in-medium, high-end feats consistent with the character’s overall portrayal.

This is not a guidebook. Its a profile written by the writer of the main JSA book (James Robinson at that time).

[Superfan90]

So, for full disclosure...and I get that this makes the whole thing confusing...yes, in DC (and Marvel) a character has to at least equal or exceed light speed to time travel. And Jay has time traveled after hitting superluminal velocity in JSA 20. But as mentioned, that was after he stole Black Adam's speed to hit the light speed barrier. He was otherwise incapable of doing that on his own at the time.

In the instance of the speedsters who could not follow Wally through the time stream in Chain Lightning, those speedsters specifically could not follow Wally through time because none of them were faster than light, or could even equal light speed at the time.

Classic Jay was faster than light.

Attachment 98159

But as he clearly later said in JSA (and I believe DK touched on this already, so if so...apologies), Jay wasn't light speed in JSA.

Attachment 98160

To be clear then, the treadmill not only helps for precise time travel (it was hit and miss for pre Crisis Barry Allan...sometimes he needed, sometimes he didn't, but he was routinely faster than light, which also muddies the waters), it also provides a vehicle for time travel for folks who cannot travel faster than light in the first place. Clearly, that was the case in Chain Lightning. But a blanket statement of, "the cosmic treadmill only works for people who are faster than light already", is completely untrue.

At least all the way up to Final Crisis.

Jay wasn't faster than light, he actually went to the speed force just two issues ago racing Rival which can only be done at lightspeed. Impulse has also gone to speed force at lightspeed.

[Beadle]

This is not a guidebook. Its a profile written by the writer of the main JSA book (James Robinson at that time).

It’s effectively the same thing. It’s off-panel narrative about what someone can do rather than a demonstration of the doing or having done it.

[Superfan90]

It’s effectively the same thing. It’s off-panel narrative about what someone can do rather than a demonstration of the doing or having done it.

Not really, he showed Jay running at speed approaching lightspeed without exerting himself.

[Beadle]

Not really, he showed Jay running at speed approaching lightspeed without exerting himself.

No, it doesn’t. I’m not arguing your other scans (I’ll leave that to TDK, Cronus etc), but what that shows is:
1. Jay running at a light jog.
2. A box of narrative blurb (not a feat) that says he *can* achieve light-speed (not that he is in that picture).

So as evidence goes, it’s worthless.

[Cronus]

Jay wasn't faster than light

Full stop. And he hasn't been in decades. He could get really close in the post Crisis era (DC 1st, race with Superman comes to mind), but never cross light speed.

he actually went to the speed force just two issues ago racing Rival which can only be done at lightspeed.

The story of Rival's return begins in issue 16 of JSA. In issue 16, Rival shows up. He is described as moving at mach 10. Later, he's described as moving at 27 thousand miles an hour. At this point, Jay describes his interaction with Clariss decades ago (in issue 104, 1949, golden age Flash) whose powers spun out of control and he (Rival) ran himself into the speed force. He also became energy (Clariss), yet despite that, was trapped in the speed force all those decades. Clariss is later described as moving at a 100 x the speed of sound. Not once in that book (issue 16, where Rival reappears decades later) is he ever described as transcending light when he returned to face Jay. Jay then faces Rival again in issue 17. When Rival tries to escape, Jay literally absorbs his speed and because Rival is still energy, Rival is actually absorbed into Jay. Despite that whole exchange, Jay having just absorbed Rival's speed...still needed to speed steal Black Adam, to reach superluminal speed.

Impulse has also gone to speed force at lightspeed.

And this proves what? That, like we've all been saying all along, that you have to exceed light speed to travel time? And I don't recall Impulse routinely crossing light speed. In fact, he often needed tech to time travel as I recall. Now, this does not include Barry Allan in his new 52 reboot who experienced speed force anomalies, randomly opening portals in time as he approached light speed. That was a whole different ball of yarn.

[Superfan90]

No, it doesn’t. I’m not arguing your other scans (I’ll leave that to TDK, Cronus etc), but what that shows is:
1. Jay running at a light jog.
2. A box of narrative blurb (not a feat) that says he *can* achieve light-speed (not that he is in that picture).

So as evidence goes, it’s worthless.

Its not worthless just because you say so. Anyway, Robinson did show Jay running approaching lightspeed.



And Johns showed Hourman freezing Jay by slowing time to picosecond range.



Johns also had Jay, Wally and Bart forming a plan within nanoseconds.



These show that lightspeed is around Jay's speed coupled with the profile from JSA secret files.

[Superfan90]

Full stop. And he hasn't been in decades. He could get really close in the post Crisis era (DC 1st, race with Superman comes to mind), but never cross light speed.



The story of Rival's return begins in issue 16 of JSA. In issue 16, Rival shows up. He is described as moving at mach 10. Later, he's described as moving at 27 thousand miles an hour. At this point, Jay describes his interaction with Clariss decades ago (in issue 104, 1949, golden age Flash) whose powers spun out of control and he (Rival) ran himself into the speed force. He also became energy (Clariss), yet despite that, was trapped in the speed force all those decades. Clariss is later described as moving at a 100 x the speed of sound. Not once in that book (issue 16, where Rival reappears decades later) is he ever described as transcending light when he returned to face Jay. Jay then faces Rival again in issue 17. When Rival tries to escape, Jay literally absorbs his speed and because Rival is still energy, Rival is actually absorbed into Jay. Despite that whole exchange, Jay having just absorbed Rival's speed...still needed to speed steal Black Adam, to reach superluminal speed.



And this proves what? That, like we've all been saying all along, that you have to exceed light speed to travel time? And I don't recall Impulse routinely crossing light speed. In fact, he often needed tech to time travel as I recall. Now, this does not include Barry Allan in his new 52 reboot who experienced speed force anomalies, randomly opening portals in time as he approached light speed. That was a whole different ball of yarn.

I'm saying that Jay is lightspeed, not FTL which is needed to time travel on his own. Nothing you said actually contradicts it.

And describing Rival's speed has nothing to do with the fact that both he and Jay were about to enter speed force which is only possible at lightspeed.

[Beadle]

Its not worthless just because you say so. Anyway, Robinson did show Jay running approaching lightspeed.

No, worthless by the terms in which this forum works; those terms of feats being a useful measure, and guidebooks, reference files and narrative blurb not being a useful measure.

And yes, “approaching”. Not achieving.

And Johns showed Hourman freezing Jay by slowing time to picosecond range.

Which shows what? That slowing him by a 100,000,000 slows him to a statue? That doesn’t make him lightspeed. It doesn’t even make him a speedster (Note: I’m obviously not saying he’s not a speedster, because he clearly is - just that the evidence presented doesn’t prove that point). Because a normal person would also be a statue if their relative time was slowed by that ratio.

If he was slowed by that ratio and still able to operate at normal human speeds, then maybe we’d be demonstrating something. But it doesn’t look like that’s what’s happening in that scan.

Johns also had Jay, Wally and Bart forming a plan within nanoseconds.

An unspecified number of nanoseconds. Which is what you’d expect from someone operating at speeds *approaching* light-speed.

These show that lightspeed is around Jay's speed coupled with the profile from JSA secret files.

“Around Jay’s speed.” but still distinctly above. Saying “around Jay’s speed” seems a bit disingenuous, to be honest. It feels like you’re trying to make a claim that by some (not all) of these scans demonstrating Jay approaching lightspeed, we might as well just say he can more or less achieve lightspeed.

And some of those scans show something. The Hourman scan shows nothing of significance. And the secret file profile means nothing. Those files are a handy reference and a nice bit of fluff, but they’re not feats, and they’re therefore not evidence.

[The Watcher]

Official Moderator Voice

Just chiming in to note that the evidence presented so far does not prove that being able to use the cosmic treadmill to time travel equals lightspeed capability. Thus its use can not be cited as proof that a character has lightspeed capability.

[The Dork Knight]

So....anyway speaking of Superman speed feats, I think folks tend to sleep on some of his new 52 feats

https://m.imgur.com/LgcKPIl
https://m.imgur.com/M51aBfF

Also, matching stuff for Supergirl

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/up...%20%235%29.jpg

I understand one of the arguments against post crisis Superman being FTL is there is an explicit history of failing to do so, comparable performances with other sub-light (Jay) etc. But new 52 never had these negative feats contradicting any of his stuff

[Pendaran]

The Supergirl link no worko.

[The Dork Knight]

The Supergirl link no worko.

Try now....

[Cronus]

I'm saying that Jay is lightspeed, not FTL which is needed to time travel on his own. Nothing you said actually contradicts it.

Your own scans you submitted to Beadle actually contradict what you are saying.

Your first scan, the narration clearly says: "unfortunately, swiftness, even at velocities approaching the speed of light".....

Next scan, says, "a hundred billionth". You do realize a billionth of a second is a nano second yes? Ostensibly then, in order for a character to exceed light speed within the span of a billionth of a second, they must move more than 11.8 inches? Jay is actually slowed by less than this by Hourman, more proof that actually contradicts what you are saying.

Your final scan, the narrations says they, "map out a plan in nanoseconds".

Did you bother to notice that they are all standing still, which typically, is all "planning" requires?

Again, you haven't provided a shred of proof of what you're alleging, namely, Jay = light speed.

I'll repeat myself for clarity: you haven't provided an ounce of proof that Jay is light speed. The only scan I have of Jay moving at light speed is the one previously submitted from Flash comics of 1949, issue 104.

Classic Flash 104.1 - Jay moves faster than light.jpg

Clearly, during post crisis era, either in Wally West's books or in modern (post crisis) JSA books, Jay has lost more than a few steps.

He is not light speed.

And describing Rival's speed has nothing to do with the fact that both he and Jay were about to enter speed force which is only possible at lightspeed.

I described Rival's speed for full context in that book. And aside from Jay describing in later issues of JSA that Rival ran into the speed force....back in 1949....you have provided literally...no evidence...not a shred...that Jay or Rival were equal to or faster than light in JSA 16 -20.