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  1. #16

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    Nevermind.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    People don't need to be told that.

    We're not expecting WW stuff 24/7 in a JL show, but when her stuff does appear I don't think it's unreasonable to expect it be treated well. Outside of Circe and Steve, none of it was. Ares and Cheetah were jokes, Giganta had no connection to her (the comics making the lousy choice to do the same around that time is no excuse either, then we have just two bad representations instead of one) and the Amazons banishing her for daring to bring men to help them is a low point.

    Eisenberg was fine, I would have liked if she had better material to work with. Or gotten her own series with minimal involvement from Bruce Timm (I'd be more willing to see involvement from Paul Dini though).
    Giganta didn't have a direct connection to Diana, but they still interacted several times in the show. Even with her limited screen time Giganta really stood out as a cool character, most fans remember that version the most. Ares was fine, especially when you have Michael York hamming it up. Definitely better than his live-action counterpart.

    The Amazons didn't banish her, her mother did because of the whole obeying the gods thing. Later on in JLU Hippolyta basically says "**** the gods, this is your home" and lifts her ban.

    Bruce Timm did the animated Wonder Woman film in 2009, which most people seemed to like. I'm not aware of Dini writing much for Wonder Woman.
    Last edited by mabromov; 06-22-2020 at 11:59 AM.

  3. #18
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mabromov View Post
    This is something I'll never understand. Contrary to popular belief, this show did not invent the Batman and Wonder Woman pairing. It happened several times before in the comics.

    Both Batman and Wonder Woman had good banter and chemistry together, hence why fans responded to it.
    Never said it invented it, but it is certainly where it got popularized due to having a larger audience than an average comic would. Same way Kingdom Come popularized the Superman and Wonder Woman pairing.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by mabromov View Post
    Wonder Woman from the DCAU gets far too much flack from people on here.

    This was Wonder Woman's first major appearance in media since the Linda Carter show. Despite Bruce Timm running into legal issues with the character, he was adamant that she be used in the series, and helped re-introduce a character who had previously been ignored for a long time. I still remember when the pilot episode first aired some fans complained about WW stealing her armor and running away from home. But everyone was perfectly okay with that 15+ years later when the same thing happened in the live-action film.

    It should be said that Wonder Woman is a hard character to write. She's a warrior, an amazon, an ambassador, a compassionate and calm person, etc. There's a bunch of stuff in her character. For a lot of writers, finding the right balance for her can be tricky. And there's many people who have a different idea on how Wonder Woman should be like.

    There were some episodes in the Justice League show where Wonder Woman just seemed like an angry brute such as Fury, Eclipsed, Hawk and Dove (though I'd argue that was the point in that episode).

    And yet, there were several episodes of JLU which characterized Wonder Woman excellently, and showed her compassionate side such as Ultimatum, Maid of Honor, Tabula Rasa, and To Another Shore. I feel it's important to keep in mind that a fair chunk of episodes did get her character right.

    Is this a flawless portrayal of WW? No, overall I'd say it'd mid-tier, there's better and worse versions of the character out there. I'd say in the show itself, Wonder Woman suffered from inconsistent writing, but there were several episodes which got her right as I've mentioned. It's frustrating when I see people on here gloss over that so they can preach their one sided narrative.
    I completely recognize and applaud the creative team for including her in the Justice League show. They definitely did the right thing there and I have no complaints.

    ...but you cannot really say it was a great interpretation of the character when pretty much everyone who watched the show walks away with the impression that Diana is an unpleasant fighter with a chip on her shoulder...who wants to date Batman....and that's all. You can make the case that's exactly what they were going for, but I think it was more a matter of not really getting who the character was and being slightly indifferent. I mean, they were willing to kill off the Cheetah in her first appearance after completely altering her origin and giving her one noteworthy character moment - kissing Batman. Now imagine if someone did that to the Joker on a Superman show. I think it's completely reasonable for fans to feel let down by the way Wonder Woman and her mythology were treated.

    The fact that they never really clarified her origin and then had to keep explaining it even years into the run says a lot. The episode The Balance was more about clarifying the questions viewers had had about Hades since the show premiered. Superman got the beautiful Last Son of Krypton...Batman got Mask of the Phantasm...Wonder Woman got two extremely vague scenes in the pilot episode.

    And as others have already pointed out, episodes that focused on getting inside the heads of the lead characters, like Only a Dream and Comfort and Joy, omitted Wonder Woman entirely.

    I'm not trying to preach a one-sided narrative. I do like what the show got right, like Diana meeting Steve Trevor during World War II and her devotion to her sisters during Paradise Lost and Diana's relationship with Martian Manhunter, which was touching. But there's so many other things that they easily could have gotten right but either chose not to or didn't even realize they were flubbing.

    Ares was fine, especially when you have Michael York hamming it up. Definitely better than his live-action counterpart.
    ... I think it's completely reasonable to say that both versions were disappointing.

    Her stealing her armor really bothered me back in the day, and it bothers me just as much in the live-action movie. If anything, and this isn't to start an argument with you, I think it's a bit presumptuous to say that people didn't like it in the show but then forgot they didn't like it for the movie. You don't know how people feel. It would have been better to just ask how people felt about that than state as fact that they were being hypocritical.

    Also, it's LYNDA Carter, with a Y. I hereby revoke your Wonder Woman fan card.

  5. #20
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mabromov View Post
    That's completely unfair. Batman and Superman had their own prior shows before this, and even then, a lot of characters in Batman TAS didn't appear on JL or had minor roles. Even before the Bat-Embargo, Bruce Timm canned several Poison Ivy stories because he wanted to focus on different characters. Flash had like one episode where his villains appeared, and he didn't have much interaction with Grodd.

    They were able to do a decent amount of Wonder Woman's mythos.

    -Introduce Paradise island and the Amazons
    -Introduce Steve Trevor
    -Have an episode with Ares as the main baddie
    -Introduce the Lasso of Truth
    -Had an episode that basically toyed with Wonder Woman's bisexuality as much as they could on a kids show
    -Have an episode with Circe as the main baddie

    In fact, Wonder Woman's villains had more main starring roles than Batman's villains in the show.
    And yet half of those things were not executed all that well. Especially Ares, the lasso getting its powers so late and

    They didn't have nearly the starring role that Lex, Brainiac and Darkseid did, despite Superman already having a show as well. None of their appearances were anywhere near as well received as the Joker two parter, "Wild Cards." So the few Batman and Superman villains that appeared in their solo shows and here were treated very well. Wonder Woman doesn't get a show period and her villains got mediocre treatment.

    Quote Originally Posted by mabromov View Post
    Giganta didn't have a direct connection to Diana, but they still interacted several times in the show. Even with her limited screen time Giganta really stood out as a cool character, most fans remember that version the most. Ares was fine, especially when you have Michael York hamming it up. Definitely better than his live-action counterpart.

    The Amazons didn't banish her, her mother did because of the whole obeying the gods thing. Later on in JLU Hippolyta basically says "**** the gods, this is your home" and lifts her ban.

    Bruce Timm did the animated Wonder Woman film in 2009, which most people seemed to like. I'm not aware of Dini writing much for Wonder Woman.
    The show did not help Giganta's reputation as being a joke villain. Hippolyta lifting the ban is still a short change of the origin story, her origin was rushed and basically an afterthought.

    Timm wasn't the only part involved with the 2009 film, and even so a lot of things did not go over well. Chiefly Steve and Etta Candy.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by DisneyBoy View Post
    I completely recognize and applaud the creative team for including her in the Justice League show. They definitely did the right thing there and I have no complaints.

    ...but you cannot really say it was a great interpretation of the character when pretty much everyone who watched the show walks away with the impression that Diana is an unpleasant fighter with a chip on her shoulder...who wants to date Batman....and that's all. You can make the case that's exactly what they were going for, but I think it was more a matter of not really getting who the character was and being slightly indifferent. I mean, they were willing to kill off the Cheetah in her first appearance after completely altering her origin and giving her one noteworthy character moment - kissing Batman. Now imagine if someone did that to the Joker on a Superman show. I think it's completely reasonable for fans to feel let down by the way Wonder Woman and her mythology were treated.

    The fact that they never really clarified her origin and then had to keep explaining it even years into the run says a lot. The episode The Balance was more about clarifying the questions viewers had had about Hades since the show premiered. Superman got the beautiful Last Son of Krypton...Batman got Mask of the Phantasm...Wonder Woman got two extremely vague scenes in the pilot episode.

    And as others have already pointed out, episodes that focused on getting inside the heads of the lead characters, like Only a Dream and Comfort and Joy, omitted Wonder Woman entirely.

    I'm not trying to preach a one-sided narrative. I do like what the show got right, like Diana meeting Steve Trevor during World War II and her devotion to her sisters during Paradise Lost and Diana's relationship with Martian Manhunter, which was touching. But there's so many other things that they easily could have gotten right but either chose not to or didn't even realize they were flubbing.


    ... I think it's completely reasonable to say that both versions were disappointing.

    Her stealing her armor really bothered me back in the day, and it bothers me just as much in the live-action movie. If anything, and this isn't to start an argument with you, I think it's a bit presumptuous to say that people didn't like it in the show but then forgot they didn't like it for the movie. You don't know how people feel. It would have been better to just ask how people felt about that than state as fact that they were being hypocritical.

    Also, it's LYNDA Carter, with a Y. I hereby revoke your Wonder Woman fan card.
    I'm not defending Cheetah, killing her off in Injustice for All would have been stupid. It should be noted James Tucker pushed for Cheetah coming back for JLU.

    But I've read some pretty hyperbolic things about this version of WW on here, which I just found ridiculous. Though some areas could have been improved as discussed, they did have episodes that did justice to WW. I wish more people here would remember that. I just watched the JLU episode "Ultimen" (one of my favorites of the series), and it featured Wonder Woman as a mentor to Long Shadow, which inspired me to make this thread.

    At any rate, for all the talk about WW being a feminist icon, she had sorely been ignored in media up until this show, unlike Batman or Superman. Heck, she never had a big screen live-action film until 2017.

    This show helped bring the character back into the spotlight.
    Last edited by mabromov; 06-22-2020 at 12:46 PM.

  7. #22
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    The best WW moments were good, but the worst ones are pretty awful. For me to consider this "average," there would have to be some stuff on the other extreme of the spectrum to balance out the really bad stuff, but there really isn't that much. For comparison's sake, I think the first season Superman is some of the lousiest Superman material you'll ever see, but I would consider JL Superman overall to be decent because they make up for it with great moments throughout the rest of the series. There's no analogous "great" Wonder Woman episode that I'd point someone out to say "Now this is Wonder Woman." I don't like the origin, her constant feuding with Hawkgirl was annoying, etc.


    The animation team did better in the 2009 movie than they did in the TV show. If a C grade is average, maybe I call this a C-. If a B is average, then it's maybe a C+.

    Anyway, everyone's take is different.

    EDIT: I would agree that later seasons of JLU started to do the character better. The writers of the show were highly attuned (at least as far as writers for TV shows typically can be) to fan chatter on the internet, and I think they realized that fans thought nerfing the lasso into a breakable rope with no other powers was not acceptable. They also were aware that fans were generally receptive to her ambassador role and made that a part of the show. The writers deserve credit for improving on pre-exsiting lore they created. But also note that you don't get full credit for breaking something early on and fixing it later. I read comments that they skipped the Lasso's truth abilities because then it would either make their jobs interrogating too easy or it'd overlap with Martian Manhunter's mind-reading abilities. To me, that's just not a valid approach to the character, and it kind of rubs off on me that it was more important to check some boxes and feature the character than it was to get the character right in the first place. Granted, they did this to a lot of characters save Hawkgirl and Batman, so it may be less a WW problem and more of problem with how to balance the characters in general.
    Last edited by DochaDocha; 06-22-2020 at 03:08 PM.

  8. #23
    Mighty Member Largo161's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mabromov View Post
    Wonder Woman from the DCAU gets far too much flack from people on here.

    This was Wonder Woman's first major appearance in media since the Linda Carter show. Despite Bruce Timm running into legal issues with the character, he was adamant that she be used in the series, and helped re-introduce a character who had previously been ignored for a long time. I still remember when the pilot episode first aired some fans complained about WW stealing her armor and running away from home. But everyone was perfectly okay with that 15+ years later when the same thing happened in the live-action film.

    I was going to object to the bolded right away, but then thought it’s not even worth it. However since DisneyBoy decided to go there in his post, I’ll follow. I hate this version of the origin every where I see it—cartoon, live-action, makes no difference. It eliminates the Contest, which is one of the most fun bits in her story.

  9. #24
    Astonishing Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Largo161 View Post
    I was going to object to the bolded right away, but then thought it’s not even worth it. However since DisneyBoy decided to go there in his post, I’ll follow. I hate this version of the origin every where I see it—cartoon, live-action, makes no difference. It eliminates the Contest, which is one of the most fun bits in her story.
    Seconded. The contest is far too important to ignored that way, not to mention the embodiment of truth shouldn't be a thief.

  10. #25
    Astonishing Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    I will say however Wonder Woman LOOKED better on JLU than she did in her own animated films. She was prettiest there despite the bad characterization.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Largo161 View Post
    I was going to object to the bolded right away, but then thought it’s not even worth it. However since DisneyBoy decided to go there in his post, I’ll follow. I hate this version of the origin every where I see it—cartoon, live-action, makes no difference. It eliminates the Contest, which is one of the most fun bits in her story.
    I've never seen anyone complain when the film did it till now, so I guess I'm wrong then.

  12. #27
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    Here's a list what I disliked about DCAU Wonder Woman

    Diana stealing the armor and leaving the island without proving herself.

    Aphrodite and Athena not being the Amazons patrons.

    Diana criticizing men as savages. She's supposed to be compassionate, kind, and loving.

    Hawkgirl grew as a character while Wonder Woman didn't. The rivalry between them was childish.

    Turning Wonder Woman into Batman's cheerleader.

    No outsmarting/strategy moments from Wonder Woman except when she broke free from her prison cell in the Starcrossed episode.

    No moments of Wonder Woman as a ambassador/diplomat except for the episode "To Another Shore"

    Ignoring the Lasso of Truth power because Bruce Timm thinks that mysteries will easily be solved.

  13. #28
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I think it gets rated about where it should. It was a below-average showing. Me, I put it at absolute worst. That's me, not everyone goes that far, but I think its fairly labeled as mostly bad. She had a good voice actress, and that's where the positives end, imo.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 06-22-2020 at 06:28 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

  14. #29
    Extraordinary Member Primal Slayer's Avatar
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    Overall I enjoyed WW in JL(U) but of course it is far from the best WW and another reason why we need another animated series where she is a main character if not THE main character. Robbing her of something like her Lasso of Truth for majority of the series was lame. It was a very watered down version of Diana.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    And yet half of those things were not executed all that well. Especially Ares, the lasso getting its powers so late and

    They didn't have nearly the starring role that Lex, Brainiac and Darkseid did, despite Superman already having a show as well. None of their appearances were anywhere near as well received as the Joker two parter, "Wild Cards." So the few Batman and Superman villains that appeared in their solo shows and here were treated very well. Wonder Woman doesn't get a show period and her villains got mediocre treatment.



    The show did not help Giganta's reputation as being a joke villain. Hippolyta lifting the ban is still a short change of the origin story, her origin was rushed and basically an afterthought.

    Timm wasn't the only part involved with the 2009 film, and even so a lot of things did not go over well. Chiefly Steve and Etta Candy.
    That comparison doesn't work considering Lex, Brainiac, and Darksied are the main overaching villains of the show, alongside Grodd and Cadmus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I think it gets rated about where it should. It was a below-average showing. Me, I put it at absolute worst. That's me, not everyone goes that far, but I think its fairly labeled as mostly bad. She had a good voice actress, and that's where the positives end, imo.
    If Wonder Woman had a relationship with Superman would that be instant 10/10?

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