Wonder Woman in the Justice League show is better than people give credit for

[SiegePerilous02]

That comparison doesn't work considering Lex, Brainiac, and Darksied are the main overaching villains of the show, alongside Grodd and Cadmus.

But you said people shouldn't expect more because it wasn't a solo WW show, but it's a given that Superman foes should get more despite the fact that they already had a series to themselves? Even the Joker's two appearances hold up far better than any Wonder Woman villains appearance, and then Batman essentially gets an episode to himself and his mythos as a partial capstone to the entire DCAU despite it being a team show, not a Batman show.

In reality, it's the lack of a solo Wonder Woman cartoon and poor showings for her mythos here on the rare occasions when it is the focus that really show that she got the shortest end of the stick of the Trinity, plus she receives the least thoughtful/accurate characterization of the three in the DCAU. And this is a universe that includes Bruce Timm's takes on Superman, so that's really saying something.

[Sacred Knight]

If Wonder Woman had a relationship with Superman would that be instant 10/10?

Ignoring the dripping sarcasm, of course not. If she had the same pathetic tweener crush for Superman and Superman was characterized in the same dickish manner as Batman, it still would have sucked. Its never a good idea assume that everyone who likes a particular relationship will accept any and all incarnations of it. In any case, that's not the only reason this WW was a bad character. Its definitely up there on a list of offenses, but not the only one. Everyone's already touched up on the rest.

[mabromov]

But you said people shouldn't expect more because it wasn't a solo WW show, but it's a given that Superman foes should get more despite the fact that they already had a series to themselves? Even the Joker's two appearances hold up far better than any Wonder Woman villains appearance, and then Batman essentially gets an episode to himself and his mythos as a partial capstone to the entire DCAU despite it being a team show, not a Batman show.

In reality, it's the lack of a solo Wonder Woman cartoon and poor showings for her mythos here on the rare occasions when it is the focus that really show that she got the shortest end of the stick of the Trinity, plus she receives the least thoughtful/accurate characterization of the three in the DCAU. And this is a universe that includes Bruce Timm's takes on Superman, so that's really saying something.

That almost sounds like... how Wonder Woman is treated as a whole by DC?

As for Superman
https://comicbookdebate.com/2018/08/...retrospective/

Ignoring the dripping sarcasm, of course not. If she had the same pathetic tweener crush for Superman and Superman was characterized in the same dickish manner as Batman, it still would have sucked. Its never a good idea assume that everyone who likes a particular relationship will accept any and all incarnations of it. In any case, that's not the only reason this WW was a bad character. Its definitely up there on a list of offenses, but not the only one. Everyone's already touched up on the rest.

But there are good things about the JLU Wonder Woman as well, as mentioned. Room for improvement sure but at the very least it's alright. Especially when you look at the actual crappy versions of WW that exist.

I guess I just don't understand this mindset. Wonder Woman had been shown zero respect in media for the longest time, this show re-introduced Wonder Woman to a whole generation of fans, at least on a rudimentary level.

[DochaDocha]

I think a lot of long-time fans liked the Gal Gadot movie in spite of the escape-off-the-island origin, not because of it. The movie did more goodwill than not, so fans accept it as part of a movie that, while charming, has its flaws, particularly the villains and the ending. For fans who were introduced to WW by this movie, they don't really have a lot to compare the movie against, so there's nothing to miss in that sense.

Though to be fair, I think Patty Jenkins had the same idea in mind as the DCAU guys: they were in a rush to get WW into Man's World, so in that aspect the "escape" origin helps the movie's pacing. I say that meaning if we had the exact same movie but WW had to win the contest first, I think the movie would've felt like it was dragging a bit. Of course, that doesn't completely justify the decision, either. There would always be the option to tailor the rest of the movie to fit in a longer Themyscira opening.

Diana criticizing men as savages. She's supposed to be compassionate, kind, and loving.

Hawkgirl... The rivalry between them was childish.

Turning Wonder Woman into Batman's cheerleader.

By all three of these things' being a part of the show, you get a compounding, synergistic problem.

1. Wonder Woman dislikes men, but the one female on the show she doesn't like, either. Really, the only nice moment these two have is when they decide to bury the hatchet, which was long overdue. Just because you finally got out of massive debt doesn't mean you're all of the sudden rich!

2. The person she ends up liking and admiring the most is Batman, but he's written at his absolute nadir in the DCAU in the early seasons (at least Old Man Bruce in Batman Beyondone can sympathize with for various reasons): arrogant, humorless, prickly, never misses a moment to mansplain (to men or women), etc. He just comes across as an awkward, angry teenager at times, probably in a bad attempt to make Batman seem "cool." Luckily, they improved a lot in later seasons at writing Batman.

3. She overlooks all of Batman's $#!t qualities, but goes back to harping about men. Repeat step 1.

It's just an awful negative feedback loop. I think in a parallel universe, you could take these three disparate aspects of the character and play them off one another to explain that WW is a deep, nuanced character who has contradicts like the rest of us, but the show comes nowhere close to that.

I guess I just don't understand this mindset. Wonder Woman had been shown zero respect in media for the longest time, this show re-introduced Wonder Woman to a whole generation of fans, at least on a rudimentary level.

Many fans may be hungry for content, but not so hungry they'll consume anything you put in front of them. You put the name and the face out there, but it misses the mark on a lot of things people wanted to see. It's like Superman Returns or any of the Fantastic Four movies from the past two decades. Ok, the Fantastic Four comment is a low blow, so let's just keep it at Superman Returns.

[Sacred Knight]

That almost sounds like... how Wonder Woman is treated as a whole by DC?

As for Superman
https://comicbookdebate.com/2018/08/...retrospective/



But there are good things about the JLU Wonder Woman as well, as mentioned. Room for improvement sure but at the very least it's alright. Especially when you look at the actual crappy versions of WW that exist.

I guess I just don't understand this mindset. Wonder Woman had been shown zero respect in media for the longest time, this show re-introduced Wonder Woman to a whole generation of fans, at least on a rudimentary level.

I can appreciate that it introduced people to Wonder Woman. The animated shows introduced a lot of kids to the characters, and in general I think that's a fine thing, nothing I'd besmirch on the fandom despite my feelings toward how the characters were portrayed. I just don't really think she was shown much respect here despite being on the show. I mean, Timm's gone on record saying he had very little idea what to do with her. Its not really a glowing endorsement that the team was really ever itching to write her. That's the kind of stuff that I think is consistently missing. Not necessarily outside exposure, though that of course is lacking too, but people who outright want to write her, want to create for her. To have a desire to specifically work on her. Not as a stepping stone to get to some other character, or someone who's a fan of other female characters so take the job just because she's female too. Just creators whose mindset it is, I want to do something with this character, I want to do something with this mythos, and my ideas are ideas I'm passionate about. I think we have that now in the movies, but the sad thing is even that doesn't seem to be drawing DC and other creators' overall attention in regards to getting her out there even more. At this point I don't know what will.

[Gaius]

Hawkgirl grew as a character while Wonder Woman didn't. The rivalry between them was childish.

Yeah, besides I think John, only Diana seemed to have real resentment over Hawkgirl's betrayal and that they were the only women of the show's big 7 lineup gave it a real "women, amirite guys?" vibe.

[Largo161]

Here's a list what I disliked about DCAU Wonder Woman

Diana stealing the armor and leaving the island without proving herself.

Aphrodite and Athena not being the Amazons patrons.

Diana criticizing men as savages. She's supposed to be compassionate, kind, and loving.

Hawkgirl grew as a character while Wonder Woman didn't. The rivalry between them was childish.

Turning Wonder Woman into Batman's cheerleader.

No outsmarting/strategy moments from Wonder Woman except when she broke free from her prison cell in the Starcrossed episode.

No moments of Wonder Woman as a ambassador/diplomat except for the episode "To Another Shore"

Ignoring the Lasso of Truth power because Bruce Timm thinks that mysteries will easily be solved.

Damn. Reading all of this makes me happy I never watched beyond the pilot episode.

[Psy-lock]

Hawkgirl grew as a character while Wonder Woman didn't. The rivalry between them was childish

Well, Diana does have a long history of tense relationships with red-haired women in the comics.

[mabromov]

I think a lot of long-time fans liked the Gal Gadot movie in spite of the escape-off-the-island origin, not because of it. The movie did more goodwill than not, so fans accept it as part of a movie that, while charming, has its flaws, particularly the villains and the ending. For fans who were introduced to WW by this movie, they don't really have a lot to compare the movie against, so there's nothing to miss in that sense.

Though to be fair, I think Patty Jenkins had the same idea in mind as the DCAU guys: they were in a rush to get WW into Man's World, so in that aspect the "escape" origin helps the movie's pacing. I say that meaning if we had the exact same movie but WW had to win the contest first, I think the movie would've felt like it was dragging a bit. Of course, that doesn't completely justify the decision, either. There would always be the option to tailor the rest of the movie to fit in a longer Themyscira opening.



By all three of these things' being a part of the show, you get a compounding, synergistic problem.

1. Wonder Woman dislikes men, but the one female on the show she doesn't like, either. Really, the only nice moment these two have is when they decide to bury the hatchet, which was long overdue. Just because you finally got out of massive debt doesn't mean you're all of the sudden rich!

2. The person she ends up liking and admiring the most is Batman, but he's written at his absolute nadir in the DCAU in the early seasons (at least Old Man Bruce in Batman Beyondone can sympathize with for various reasons): arrogant, humorless, prickly, never misses a moment to mansplain (to men or women), etc. He just comes across as an awkward, angry teenager at times, probably in a bad attempt to make Batman seem "cool." Luckily, they improved a lot in later seasons at writing Batman.

3. She overlooks all of Batman's $#!t qualities, but goes back to harping about men. Repeat step 1.

It's just an awful negative feedback loop. I think in a parallel universe, you could take these three disparate aspects of the character and play them off one another to explain that WW is a deep, nuanced character who has contradicts like the rest of us, but the show comes nowhere close to that.



Many fans may be hungry for content, but not so hungry they'll consume anything you put in front of them. You put the name and the face out there, but it misses the mark on a lot of things people wanted to see. It's like Superman Returns or any of the Fantastic Four movies from the past two decades. Ok, the Fantastic Four comment is a low blow, so let's just keep it at Superman Returns.

I don't think Superman Returns actually resonated with anyone, whereas WW in the JL show did.

And actually, the first time Wonder Woman shows affection to Batman is not when he's being a dick, but in season 1 when for a brief moment everyone thinks WW may have died and Batman starts panicking and digging out the rubble.

Yeah, besides I think John, only Diana seemed to have real resentment over Hawkgirl's betrayal and that they were the only women of the show's big 7 lineup gave it a real "women, amirite guys?" vibe.

As opposed to 6 male characters, half of them thirsting over Wonder Woman like it was usually done in the comics?

The JL show practically broke new ground by having two female members as part of the main 7.

[Psy-lock]

Now that I'm thinking about it, the Fury episode was a big missed opportunity to use Villainy Inc instead of some original character. I mean a killer virus? Sounds like a job for Dr Poison. And the misandrist plot would've worked well for Queen Clea.

[SiegePerilous02]

That almost sounds like... how Wonder Woman is treated as a whole by DC?

As for Superman
https://comicbookdebate.com/2018/08/...retrospective/

The show doesn't get a free pass for not creating the problem when it still contributes to the problem overall. We even have the creators agreeing with Bwana Beast that she is a stuck up pig in the commentary of "This Little Piggie," which would be easy to dismiss as a joke if we didn't have the rest of the lackluster treatment. The character deserves much better.

As for Superman, an article can call it definitive all it wants, it is ultimately opinion based. It's middle of the road as far as Superman versions go, IMO. STAS was the best installment for that Superman, and even so he himself was pretty boring. Stand outs were really Lex, Lois, Brainiac and Mxy.

[DochaDocha]

I don't think Superman Returns actually resonated with anyone, whereas WW in the JL show did.

Superman Returns made about $200M domestic. The average movie ticket price in 2006 was $6.55. That translates to about 30 million tickets sold in the US. It was going to resonate with someone (not with me, though, that movie is average at best, and I'm being generous).

And actually, the first time Wonder Woman shows affection to Batman is not when he's being a dick, but in season 1 when for a brief moment everyone thinks WW may have died and Batman starts panicking and digging out the rubble.

Blatant affection, yes, though even in the first episode her first comments about Batman are about how brave or something he is. Seriously, it's like the DCAU guys can't stop gushing about Batman every chance they get that the characters in the DCAU (especially the females, e.g. Batgirl) end up reflecting their feelings about him through the characters. Even earlier in that episode, when they're looking for Gorilla City, WW has this inane line about how the Javelin's computers can't be wrong because BATMAN MADE IT. I don't think there's ever any point in the show when she and Batman ever have a philosophical disagreement except on whether they should date.

As for that scene in the video, I think it's mostly innocuous, other than the fact that they write Martian Manhunter like a complete dumb@$$. Why would he assume just stand there and assume WW was dead? He's literally the most qualified guy there to confirm WW's status, and he's like, "Sorry Bats, I didn't phase down there to check on her, and I didn't scan her brain for activity, but I'm pretty sure she's dead." Season one writing is so bad at times... But honestly, I think the writers knew exactly what they're doing. We can't see how specifically caring Batman is if the other characters on the screen are also trying to dig her out. It's something that's bothered me for years, and I was always skeptical when one of the crew said in an interview that fans were reading too much into it.

Maybe the scene isn't innocuous.

[Agent Z]

It isn't my favorite version of Diana but then again, I've seen worse.

Seconded. The contest is far too important to ignored that way, not to mention the embodiment of truth shouldn't be a thief.

I was going to object to the bolded right away, but then thought it’s not even worth it. However since DisneyBoy decided to go there in his post, I’ll follow. I hate this version of the origin every where I see it—cartoon, live-action, makes no difference. It eliminates the Contest, which is one of the most fun bits in her story.

There is a fundamental problem with the contest as a premise. Namely, that it doesn't portray Diana as more heroic than the other Amazons just more powerful and a better fighter.

[Gaius]

As opposed to 6 male characters, half of them thirsting over Wonder Woman like it was usually done in the comics?

The JL show practically broke new ground by having two female members as part of the main 7.

I admit I don’t read much Justice League but has that ever really been a thing in a JL book? The only thing coming to mind is Plastic-Man being a creep for comic relief.

Not taking away from them having a another woman on the team but I agree with others in that her and Hawkgirl’s interactions always came off as childish to me.

[Largo161]

It isn't my favorite version of Diana but then again, I've seen worse.





There is a fundamental problem with the contest as a premise. Namely, that it doesn't portray Diana as more heroic than the other Amazons just more powerful and a better fighter.

I don’t see that as a problem.

I’m far more satisfied with a telling that portrays the Amazons as a nation of women, so brave and skilled, that conceivably any of them could have a chance to be Wonder Woman.