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  1. #16
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    Ultimately they can do what they want, highlight what they want or downplay what they want. Take what people tend to like from the sequels and roll onward while ignoring other things. I'm curious to see what plays and what doesn't in the future but I doubt they'll break out the canon revisionism.

    But fuck it, go big or go home!

    In the end, the Sequel Trilogy is a series of three films about characters who are aware they can't live up to the legacy of the previous generation, failing to live up to the legacy of the previous generation. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. And a mixed bag. Kylo Ren absolutely can't live up to the legacy of Darth Vader. Or Leia, frankly. But he can live up to the legacy of Han Solo. Which is just to do the right thing at the last minute and die a pretty shitty death. Rey can't live up to her grandfather's legacy, but it's probably a good thing. It's so impossible to get out of the Shadow of the Past because, well frankly, the Shadow of the Past still lingers, alive through almost editorial metatextual means, ghosts of Legacy literally haunt the galaxy. I'm legit ignoring the contributions of every other character. Finn and Poe are charming but irrelevant to the plot. I expressly think that the themes of the Sequels, incredibly ironically, are intrinsically built into the very idea of trying to make them. This fascinates and kind of delights me. As a simple story of good and evil, legacy and loss, they could've leaned into the Romeo & Juliet side of things more for a stronger film trilogy. But somewhere out there I bet there's a three-hour-cut of all three that takes a scalpel to all the irrelevant data and just makes a decent single movie adventure.

    But yeah, they can't even run around TRYING to boldly climb out of the shadow of their betters' legacies without accidentally killing all their heroes and basically ruining those legacies. Which is as true of Rey and Kylo as it is the films themselves, and J.J. Abrams and Rian Johnson can't get out of Lucas's shadow (but also Kirschner and Marquand) for attempting them. Because they are the "Next Generation" but they are not the Padawans, mentored by the previous generation. That's Yoda's message to Luke. "They are what what we grow beyond." The irony of course is that this is the Pretender-to-the-Crown Generation. The Padawans, the actual students of Lucas and what he was doing who have grown beyond him ... are Favreau and Filoni.

    The Star Wars Skywalker Saga doesn't even have to be over. It can be like Star Trek. The Odd-Number Trilogies (1,2,3 ... 7,8,9) are the not great ones, the Even-Number Trilogies can kick ass. (4,5,6 ... 10,11,12).

    You put out Episodes 10, 11, and 12 and have Favreau and Filoni come up with something? It's going to be good. A new paradigm. It could even be packed with the circular "black and white imperialesque villainy with man-in-black evil mystic foes" versus "underdogs and whatever" aesthetic like it always is and it'll still play well because of who is making it.

    But I have an even cooler idea.

    Just read the Thrawn Trilogy for the first time, in comic form. So good (but also kind of baffling in places) that I have to deep dive the books themselves. But I mean, just go Episode 6.5. Do the Thrawn Trilogy Remix, which is something Filoni has ostensibly already set up. Only use a crazy Ezra instead of C'baoth, have Leia not have twins, give Luke Mara Jade, give more adventures with Han, Lando, bring back that merry band. Imply that Mara Jade is Rey's mom, from after her failed marriage to Luke, which actually gives Rey a reason to inherit Anakin's lightsaber. Big hints at the potential of cloning coming back into play with Palps, and instead of "Luuke" being a thing we get a mirror match between Luke and an Ezra who is basically mind-controlled by Evil Salamander creatures that Thrawn found in the Unknown Sectors and a mistaken Harry & Neville sense of prophecies getting mixed up.

    And have Obi-Wan's damn ghost show up.

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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The gauntless toss was for the Disneyistas to create a new aesthetic, better than the one Lucas did it in those two movies. Instead they regurgitate a static backdrop as a house style. That's part of the reason why the Disney stuff and the non-Lucas stuff aren't canon. They don't hve his imagination, his style, his intelligence, and his wit. Yeah, Lucas had all of that, and that was there in the visual sensibility of these movies.
    That is literally irrelevant to whether it's canon or not. Canon just means whether it's considered part of the official story. Everything else is just craftsmanship as it pertains to the movies/whatever as art.

    So, yes, the Disney stuff is as canon as the stuff Lucas made. Whether it's better or worse on an artistic level is a whole other topic.
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  3. #18
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    I'm sure we'll see more retconning in Star Wars akin to the Legends stuff before you know it.

    I still think when Disney gets to the point of too much continuity to manage, they'll just reboot.
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  4. #19
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    I doubt that they will risk that until they are certain most if not all of the original 1977 audiences are no around anymore.

    Honestly Mara Jade and maybe the Vong are the logical additions from Legends they need to bring back.

  5. #20
    Mighty Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Metaltron View Post
    I doubt that they will risk that until they are certain most if not all of the original 1977 audiences are no around anymore.

    Honestly Mara Jade and maybe the Vong are the logical additions from Legends they need to bring back.
    I still can't believe the Disney machine missed out on the chance to add Mara Jade to their collection of Disney Princesses.
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  6. #21
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    I still can't believe the Disney machine missed out on the chance to add Mara Jade to their collection of Disney Princesses.
    Nor can I. It is mindboggling. She would have been a great fit with only minor retooling required (her EU/Legends past with the Emperor was a bit risque for Dinsey's tastes).
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  7. #22
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Well the calls for the prequels to be remade were drowned by calls to strike it from the canon and pretend they didn't happen and so on.

    And the ST for the most part did deliver. Those movies and all Disney that came after, is built on the idea that the OT is what counts even if PT was still canon.

    My big issue with the Sequel Trilogy is that those three movies aesthetically regurgitate the look of the OT without any thought and concern. These movies are set 30 years after Return of the Jedi and yet the galaxy looks no different. Whereas Lucas in the prequels communicated and built an aesthetic that showed a world that looked totally different from how it would 20 years under Palpatine's regime.

    The gauntless toss was for the Disneyistas to create a new aesthetic, better than the one Lucas did it in those two movies. Instead they regurgitate a static backdrop as a house style. That's part of the reason why the Disney stuff and the non-Lucas stuff aren't canon. They don't hve his imagination, his style, his intelligence, and his wit. Yeah, Lucas had all of that, and that was there in the visual sensibility of these movies.
    I agree with TPM to a degree-although Tatooine is pretty similar to what we see in the OT. AOTC and ROTS however sort of are fairly close in aesthetics to the OT, just with a lot more Jedi around.
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  8. #23
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisIII View Post
    I agree with TPM to a degree-although Tatooine is pretty similar to what we see in the OT.
    Well it was supposed to. The entire point was to show that as far as Tatooine goes, there was no difference between the Republic and the Empire. The same government, the same people, the same system. That explains in part why Anakin is able to go over so readily to the Empire since the Republic was never a real thing to him.

    AOTC and ROTS however sort of are fairly close in aesthetics to the OT, just with a lot more Jedi around.
    I don't see that at all. Nothing in the OT looks like Coruscant or Kamino, Geonosis or Mustafar.

    The closest is Cloud City in the Empire Strikes Back (which is pointedly a holdout not under Imperial control when we first see it).

    The Prequel Trilogy far more than the OT did really did put across the scale of the galaxies.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    I still can't believe the Disney machine missed out on the chance to add Mara Jade to their collection of Disney Princesses.
    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    Nor can I. It is mindboggling. She would have been a great fit with only minor retooling required (her EU/Legends past with the Emperor was a bit risque for Dinsey's tastes).
    Part of the reason I thought Rey would be a Skywalker was because I felt there was too much money-making potential and creative intrigue in re-imagining the overall successful Legends version of Mara, her hook up with Luke, and the way that added some serious meat to the period between ROTJ and the rise of the Solo kids by NJO.

    Mara Jade is a character who really could be retooled slightly (perhaps as an Imperial Intelligence agent hiding her Force sensitive nature from fear of discovery, or as an ex-Inquisitor in a redemption storyline), then used as the main character in a series between the OT and ST... and then as a side-story to her personal story, become involved with Luke to conceive Rey, before having something cause her to leave Rey on Jakku - I always thought “left temporarily behind because Mom feels her next hyperspace investigation isn’t safe in the Force, gets stranded on an Unknown Regions planet, and is the main target of a post-ST odyssey for Rey would be profitable.

    That would basically create mandatory major events in ancillary material that gets elevated as a continuation of the OT3’s main story, but with an all new character for the mainstream audience, but one who’s already gone through a “rough draft” to financial success in previous books, comics, and video games.

    I felt all that kind of speculation and brainstorming would just add to the pile of other advantages of Rey Skywalker over the other options - alongside adding a dimension to her rivalry with Kylo, allowing her to have a twist on Luke and Vader’s relationship when she meets her father, make the major family subplot of the ST be a fight over what part of Anakin/Vader’s legacy would survive, and make sure that *she’s* the main focus and can’t possibly be overwhelmed by Kylo’s heritage.
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  10. #25
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    You really have to understand that Mara Jade had nothing to offer the sequels.

    It's about the new heroes and the main conflict is between Ben and Rey and of which Mara Jade offers what? The audience doesn't know who she is so it doesn't matter. We know her significance, but the average viewer is not going to know or care about her because she doesn't exist in the films. The average audience member has seen the films, this is something you can guarantee, but knowing of an EU character? You cannot expect the audience to have done homework. The GA doesn't know who Luke's kids are let alone that he was married. And aside from that she has no narrative role in the sequels that you can't just give to the OT cast who are significantly more important.

    So it's not something you can just retool for the sequels because the positions had been filled and only we're going to know who she even is. This is something that the anthology films should've tackled since you can establish her relationship with Luke there without getting in the way of the sequels. The problem of course with that is that they didn't do it and those died after Solo under-performed with no place for her in either version of Episode 9. She's not impossible to use but there was never going to be Mara Jade in the sequels.
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Well it was supposed to. The entire point was to show that as far as Tatooine goes, there was no difference between the Republic and the Empire. The same government, the same people, the same system. That explains in part why Anakin is able to go over so readily to the Empire since the Republic was never a real thing to him.



    I don't see that at all. Nothing in the OT looks like Coruscant or Kamino, Geonosis or Mustafar.

    The closest is Cloud City in the Empire Strikes Back (which is pointedly a holdout not under Imperial control when we first see it).

    The Prequel Trilogy far more than the OT did really did put across the scale of the galaxies.
    I have to agree, the prequels expanded the universe, and made it feel so much bigger than what the original trilogy made it out to be. Mustafar in particular is such a cool planet.
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorIronman View Post
    You really have to understand that Mara Jade had nothing to offer the sequels.

    It's about the new heroes and the main conflict is between Ben and Rey and of which Mara Jade offers what? The audience doesn't know who she is so it doesn't matter. We know her significance, but the average viewer is not going to know or care about her because she doesn't exist in the films. The average audience member has seen the films, this is something you can guarantee, but knowing of an EU character? You cannot expect the audience to have done homework. The GA doesn't know who Luke's kids are let alone that he was married. And aside from that she has no narrative role in the sequels that you can't just give to the OT cast who are significantly more important.

    So it's not something you can just retool for the sequels because the positions had been filled and only we're going to know who she even is. This is something that the anthology films should've tackled since you can establish her relationship with Luke there without getting in the way of the sequels. The problem of course with that is that they didn't do it and those died after Solo under-performed with no place for her in either version of Episode 9. She's not impossible to use but there was never going to be Mara Jade in the sequels.
    I think that was mainly my point: the only thing Mara offered the ST was proof that Luke could have a love interest and a kid, while the rest of her value would be in making sure that ancillary material had a proven character concept to build off and heavily feature.

    But that's the thing - Mara proved that Luke could have a wife and kid... and nobody panicked.

    And the ST should have made Rey his kid.

    Seriously, she gained exactly nothing from being “Random,” and even the TROS Palpatine reveal shows it’s serious weaknesses as long as the audience is expected to give a damn about Ben Solo.

    All that hogwash and two-faced double speak trying to claim her being Random was a powerful story steadfastly ignored how that story already applied to Finn, and how Finn was ignored, condescended to, and ultimately demoted from the lead role in TLJ...as was Rey. Seriously, she and Kylo agree she’s Random, and the script shoos her off center stage so that Kylo and Luke can take it instead - because they’re Skywalkers.

    If they ever wanted to retcon any part of the ST, Rey’s parentage would be first, and would hopefully be accompanied by its natural fallout in one key area...making sure Finn remained the male lead, her main companion, and not the mother-kriffing non-entity of Ben “Remember I’m a mass murdering Neo-Nazi who tried to mind rape her?” Solo.

    Seriously, dumping Finn and John Boyega for Kylo was the second biggest mistake they made. The first was trying to make the relationship between Kylo/Ben and Rey a thing. The third, even though it’s easy to be more passionate about, was making Luke a selfish old coward so that Rian Johnson could tell a pretentious man-pain story,
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  13. #28
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    Yeah there's nothing Mara Jade could've offered the sequels. And even if the sequels got rewritten to accommodate her, it's still not worth it because her role is taken up by the OT cast. Maybe she could've trained Rey but nobody at the time expected Carrie Fisher to die. She's just out of place in a lot of this.

    Rey being a Skywalker by blood? I'm indifferent on because Star Wars has this weird fascination with bloodlines and the divine right of kings as well as chosen ones that it's not a deal breaker for me that she's not. Adopted into the family is just as good because family doesn't necessarily have to be by blood. That being said I don't think the choice to make her a Palpatine was a great decision either but it works as well as Luke finding out he's Darth Vader's son. I don't think her parentage really has a good answer here. Had it been Luke we'd have to ask why Luke never followed up on her. Had she been nobody the audience was left blue balled since the GA doesn't understand that anybody can use the force despite this being established long ago in the films.And frankly her being a Palpatine would've explained her significance but made it a harder pill to swallow with people obsessed with the legacies of Luke Skywalker. There's really no good answer here.
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  14. #29

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    I doubt they'll retcon the sequel trilogy. The far more likely outcome is they'll ignore it and focus on other things not connected to the Skywalker saga. That just seems like it would be far more profitable in the long run.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by MASTER-OF-SUPRISE View Post
    I doubt they'll retcon the sequel trilogy. The far more likely outcome is they'll ignore it and focus on other things not connected to the Skywalker saga. That just seems like it would be far more profitable in the long run.
    The word "Skywalker Saga" remember was invented by Disney and JJ Abrams to promote TROS...it was never Lucas' name for the movies.

    Lucas simply intended it to be Star Wars, and if there was a sub-title he always described it indirectly as the "the fall and redemption of Darth Vader".

    And I don't think the title "the Skywalker Saga" makes sense fo the ST since ultimately it's about Palpatine. At the end of TROS, Palpatine becomes the central character of the entire story not Vader.

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