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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorIronman View Post
    Yeah there's nothing Mara Jade could've offered the sequels. And even if the sequels got rewritten to accommodate her, it's still not worth it because her role is taken up by the OT cast. Maybe she could've trained Rey but nobody at the time expected Carrie Fisher to die. She's just out of place in a lot of this.

    Rey being a Skywalker by blood? I'm indifferent on because Star Wars has this weird fascination with bloodlines and the divine right of kings as well as chosen ones that it's not a deal breaker for me that she's not. Adopted into the family is just as good because family doesn't necessarily have to be by blood. That being said I don't think the choice to make her a Palpatine was a great decision either but it works as well as Luke finding out he's Darth Vader's son. I don't think her parentage really has a good answer here. Had it been Luke we'd have to ask why Luke never followed up on her. Had she been nobody the audience was left blue balled since the GA doesn't understand that anybody can use the force despite this being established long ago in the films.And frankly her being a Palpatine would've explained her significance but made it a harder pill to swallow with people obsessed with the legacies of Luke Skywalker. There's really no good answer here.
    Star Wars doesn’t (or didn’t, at least) have an obsession with bloodlines. It doesn’t (or didn’t) have some “divine right of kings” thing going for it.

    The central Saga films (before the “Skywalker Saga” title, which I believe was used sporadically well before TROS’s production) just featured a generational family story, about a single family, and one that had extremely humble origins among slaves, with a creative and even subversive take on the Chosen One storyline - the fact that Anakin is expected to be a Messianic figure but becomes more analogous to the Anti-Christ is the biggest reason why, dramatically speaking, that element of lore-work was still unconventional and creative.

    And honestly, I’m always a bit confused by people thinking that explaining how Luke and Rey are separated *has* to be some kind of liability - the lost prince or princess trope is all over the place in legends and media, as are different and dramatic ways to portray its fallout. Indeed, the idea of Rey having to tackle her abandonment issues with whatever mysterious story Luke would have about it was part of the attraction of he story... as would the idea of perhaps reversing Vader&Luke’s chemistry, where instead of two enemies discovering a familiar bond and it eventually bringing them together, have Luke&Rey discover a familial bond that actually drives them apart when they can least afford that.

    I WILL argue that there can be and *is* actually a way to do the “family in spite fo blood” story, or to sell Rey as a Random... but you can’t do that while simulataneously trying to treat Kylo/Ben as special because of his lineage and inevitably going through a redemption because he can’t deny his blood ties... but that also requires ending the family story of the Skywalkers on a diner note that no one really wants.

    Rey’s bonds to Finn and Han, and her overall story in TFA, is plenty strong, and doesn’t necessarily succumb to any issues when faced with Kylo, because he’s by and large a deconstruction of the Skywalker archetype - a selfish, self-centered, and entitled brat with no redeeming qualities and more loathsome than intimidating. But again, you have to admit that him as the only Skywalker is a needlessly spiteful revocation of the happy ending from ROTJ.

    TLJ shows where things got screwed up. You can’t treat Kylo as special, pretend that his past as Ben matters more than anything he does to Rey, the Galaxy, or her friends, and then try to pretend that an underdeveloped and tepid version of Rey you’re writing is strong because you waste her time on an anti-climactic mystery where she’s revealed to have no connection to the family story that Kylo is basking in... and then exile her from the final confrontation.

    To me, there were two decisions made by TLJ that kind of just doomed certain objectives that LFL later discovered they wanted when making Episode IX:

    -LFL decided they wanted a Rey on par with Anakin or Luke, a satisfactory ending to the Skywalker family story, and Ben Solo redeemed.

    But...

    - You can’t do all that when the only Skywalker left is a shallow, patricidal Neo-Nazi with no redeeming or sympathetic qualities, that only Skywalker is Ben Solo, and Rey is in danger of being overshadowed and overwhelmed by Ben because of his lineage and crapping writing of her around him post-TFA.

    Really, the only big way they could have done this would be to either a) retcon Rey into a Skywalker, and thus dump TLJ, or b) retcon Ben and reveal he wasn’t really a Solo, and thus undermine the entire reason poeple had for arguing he “had” to be redeemed.
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  2. #32
    Astonishing Member Coal Tiger's Avatar
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    It's completely absurd. They're gonna scrap some of the most successful movies they've ever made because some incels got mad? Ridiculous. They need to come up with a new story and push the franchise forward. Obviously it's not Marvel where they can make a few individual movies a year, they need a focused story.

    And what exactly are they gonna replace them with? Carrie Fisher is dead, Harrison Ford doesn't want to do the movies anymore, and Mark Hamill isn't exactly a spring chicken. Recasting the roles is out of the question, and doing animated stuff is a signal that it doesn't matter. Doing a completely different time period is their only option.

  3. #33
    Mighty Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coal Tiger View Post
    And what exactly are they gonna replace them with? Carrie Fisher is dead, Harrison Ford doesn't want to do the movies anymore, and Mark Hamill isn't exactly a spring chicken. Recasting the roles is out of the question, and doing animated stuff is a signal that it doesn't matter. Doing a completely different time period is their only option.
    I just want to say that they will never so it. But if they did do it, all they would have to do its just strike the sequel trilogy from canon and then set the new films two hundred years after Jedi.
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  4. #34
    Astonishing Member Coal Tiger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    I just want to say that they will never so it. But if they did do it, all they would have to do its just strike the sequel trilogy from canon and then set the new films two hundred years after Jedi.
    The reason the angry incels want the sequel trilogy stricken from the record was that it didn't show Luke doing enough cool stuff and there were girls in it. What's the point of capitulating to their ridiculous demands if they're gonna continue to not give them what they say they want?

    Ideally the next movies would take place a hundred or so years in the future, but the sequel trilogy doesn't need to be erased for that.

  5. #35
    Mighty Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coal Tiger View Post
    The reason the angry incels want the sequel trilogy stricken from the record was that it didn't show Luke doing enough cool stuff and there were girls in it. What's the point of capitulating to their ridiculous demands if they're gonna continue to not give them what they say they want?

    Ideally the next movies would take place a hundred or so years in the future, but the sequel trilogy doesn't need to be erased for that.
    People would be perfectly okay with Jedi being the swan song for the OT characters and then skipping ahead two to three hundred years.

    1. It means the Disney Trilogy never happened.

    2. The happy ending of Jedi is preserved.

    3. It takes place so far in the future Disney has to sink or swim with its own characters instead of having the older more popular characters job (wrestling term) to the new folks and in some cases outright character assassination some people feel certain characters received.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coal Tiger View Post
    The reason the angry incels want the sequel trilogy stricken from the record was that it didn't show Luke doing enough cool stuff and there were girls in it. What's the point of capitulating to their ridiculous demands if they're gonna continue to not give them what they say they want?

    Ideally the next movies would take place a hundred or so years in the future, but the sequel trilogy doesn't need to be erased for that.
    What if the reason you‘d want it stricken is because it wound up becoming an accidentally racist, sexist, and actually somewhat pro-incel Trilogy?

    Seriously, Rey gets shoved into a shallowly-written abusive relationship and is forced to share the spotlight with Kylo/Ben by TLJ and TROS while those films coddle and worship Kylo/Ben with a massive double-standard even though he’s basically a more hands-on version fo Stephen Miller or Steve Bannon, while Finn gets demoted, dismissed, and shoved to the side along with the other Non-white characters, and again it seems largely for the sake of Kylo. And Rey also had to put up with being sidelines and not benefitting even a bit from sharing the screen with Luke, because TLJ is Luke’s movie, not hers, even if it’s still largely pretentious melodrama.

    Understand: I’m not debating the existence and vociferous attacks by racists and sexists on the ST. And I’m also not ignoring the number of fans who got ticked at the treatment today the OT3. I’m just getting ticked at people constantly down-playing and ignoring the parts of the ST that *became* sexist and racist and drove people away after TLJ *alongside* the treatment of the OT3 and especially the missed opportunities with Luke.

    Losers threw a hissy fit over Finn being a black stormtrooper and male lead and Rey being the main lead and a girl in TFA... and that movie made $2 Billion and got great goodwill from the audience.

    Then TLJ came in, effectively dumped both those characters below Luke and Kylo... and managed to waste enough goodwill to lose $700 Million dollars in comparison to TFA even with Rian Johnson being a great director and Hamill proving his often-neglected skill as an actor.

    TROS then lost another $230 million from TLJ while desperately trying to do something with Rey and maneuver in a way to maintain TLJ’s fiction of Kylo being a sympathetic character.

    I’m not denying that the ST was trying to be progressive and bold, and that some cry babies whined about it. I am arguing that it then shot itself in the foot in maintaining the interest if female and non-white demographics by the time TROS came out - since they actually had significantly lost female audience members and black audience members by the time TROS came out.
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  7. #37
    Astonishing Member Coal Tiger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    What if the reason you‘d want it stricken is because it wound up becoming an accidentally racist, sexist, and actually somewhat pro-incel Trilogy?

    Seriously, Rey gets shoved into a shallowly-written abusive relationship and is forced to share the spotlight with Kylo/Ben by TLJ and TROS while those films coddle and worship Kylo/Ben with a massive double-standard even though he’s basically a more hands-on version fo Stephen Miller or Steve Bannon, while Finn gets demoted, dismissed, and shoved to the side along with the other Non-white characters, and again it seems largely for the sake of Kylo. And Rey also had to put up with being sidelines and not benefitting even a bit from sharing the screen with Luke, because TLJ is Luke’s movie, not hers, even if it’s still largely pretentious melodrama.

    Understand: I’m not debating the existence and vociferous attacks by racists and sexists on the ST. And I’m also not ignoring the number of fans who got ticked at the treatment today the OT3. I’m just getting ticked at people constantly down-playing and ignoring the parts of the ST that *became* sexist and racist and drove people away after TLJ *alongside* the treatment of the OT3 and especially the missed opportunities with Luke.

    Losers threw a hissy fit over Finn being a black stormtrooper and male lead and Rey being the main lead and a girl in TFA... and that movie made $2 Billion and got great goodwill from the audience.

    Then TLJ came in, effectively dumped both those characters below Luke and Kylo... and managed to waste enough goodwill to lose $700 Million dollars in comparison to TFA even with Rian Johnson being a great director and Hamill proving his often-neglected skill as an actor.

    TROS then lost another $230 million from TLJ while desperately trying to do something with Rey and maneuver in a way to maintain TLJ’s fiction of Kylo being a sympathetic character.

    I’m not denying that the ST was trying to be progressive and bold, and that some cry babies whined about it. I am arguing that it then shot itself in the foot in maintaining the interest if female and non-white demographics by the time TROS came out - since they actually had significantly lost female audience members and black audience members by the time TROS came out.
    You won't get any argument from me about TROS bungling the ending, but if you're gonna throw out movies for being problematic you might as well throw out all of them.

  8. #38
    Mighty Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coal Tiger View Post
    You won't get any argument from me about TROS bungling the ending, but if you're gonna throw out movies for being problematic you might as well throw out all of them.
    Are we really trying to shift the blame to TROS? This trilogy was screwed wayyyyy before TROS.

    They had no plan. I remember saying this back when TLJ fallout hit and everyone denying it and dismissing the people who said that they didn't. Now everyone walks around saying they didn't have a plan like it was common knowledge.

    I remember people saying that Luke being written out of character being dismissed. Now even Scott Mendelson, the biggest TLJ fan on the internet has to do a mea culpa, or something as close to a mea culpa that someone like him could do https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottme.../#3f9eb39060d7
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coal Tiger View Post
    You won't get any argument from me about TROS bungling the ending, but if you're gonna throw out movies for being problematic you might as well throw out all of them.
    Problematic is one thing.

    A film chalked so full of liabilities that it ends up damaging the appeal, purpose, and functionality of characters is something different, especially if those liabilities also run directly contrary to the objectives, storyline and meta-narrative, for those characters? That’s clearly worse.

    Finn drinking from an animal trough in TFA? Problematic. But it doesn’t interfere with him being the central male character, having a highly ambitious and emotional character arc, and having an excellent relationship with Rey that makes them complementary characters to each other, and it gives the ST a black male lead who’s well rounded, sympathetic, and an active agent in the plot of the film.

    Finn’s progress in TFA being ignored, being shoved out of his lead role into an ancillary one, kept from exchanging even one line of dialogue with Rey, being lectured about child slavery while the film steadily ignores *he’s* a child slave soldier, and made to go through a sloppy and ultimately pointless story that can be summarized as “Everyone would have been better off if these (coincidentally non-white) characters just did what the (coincidentally white) commanding officer told them without question” in TLJ? Well, now you’ve turned a lead character who happens to be non-white into a fantastically un-self-aware example of tokenism, who could have his entire section the film removed and had little to no effect on the film... and what story he does have is largely forgettable, bland, and uninteresting, if not insulting.

    Rey having to be taken prisoner and tortured before she finally seizes her own agency and is actualized to join the fight on her own in TFA? Problematic. But it can also fit into a character arc, still shows her as a hardened and rough survivor who’s extremely capable, relateably emotional but focused, and an assertive action girl you wouldn’t mind having as a role model or as a main character, since she’s highly motivated and easy to cheer for.

    Rey’s experiences with Kylo in TFA being dismissed, downplayed, and ultimately discarded so she can fawn over him and crush on him when all she’s learned is that his uncle could have stopped his school-shooting phase, and with no effort to address her being tortured and mentally violated in the last film, just so he can manipulate and use her for his own ends, then banish her from the climax so he can face his uncle instead... and when she *doesn’t really have anything else going for her aside from being overpowered but mentally weak*? Well, now you’ve made this character both an example of a poisonous role model you don’t want people to follow, AND a boring, underdeveloped, and bland main character who can’t even hate someone who violates her and murders her friends, AND you’ve taken a film away from her as the main character in exchange for treating Luke as such instead.

    Understand, a lot of this isn’t so much issues with concept, but with execution. And that holds true for other issues.

    The Galaxy being more inspired by Luke’s shadow puppet show than either the Hosnian System’s destruction or Starkiller Base’s destruction? Problematic, but it doesn’t have to so devalue the actions and sacrifices of the last movie, nor does it need to rely on so little from Luke and pretend that the Galaxy really just needed an old sad white man to get inspired. The implications are one thing, but making TFA’s bittersweet victory worthless also undermines the main characters and the main conflict., making them boring and less tense.

    Kylo being viewed sympathetically? Problematic, but only as long as you don’t, say, treat the blandly predictable mass-murdering patricide and Neo-Nazi sympathetically *AS IS* and actually reveal something new about him. Rey and the audience could have found out what actually happened to make him become an evil douche bag, and seen something positive about Ben Solo, or he could have grown from his TFA portrayal and expressed horror and sorrow over killing his father, and been motivated to betray Snoke because Hux betrayed him. Instead, it’s just “Man, I hope you audience members agree that this less sympathetic, less developed, more loathsome white guy is more interesting and worthy of the lead role and Rey’s attention than Finn!”

    Understand: TROS’s biggest bungles were the direct result of mostly TLJ’s horrible mistakes. TLJ is more than problematic - it’s just a bad movie... and a bad movie that sabotaged the main leads and conflict of the ST because it was fixated on white dude privilege and had a pretentious streak that made it’s blind spots and accidental racism and sexism FAR more dangerous to the safety of the story going forward than it would be under normal circumstances.

    TFA certainly has flaws, but TLJ simply doubled down on those flaws while dumping what strength it had, especially for Rey and Finn.
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  10. #40
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Regarding Mara Jade, it seems like at least part of her purpose in the OT era has been taken over in the new canon by the Inquisitors-although she seemed to be a more covert type than somebody with any authority, and was never quite as "Dark Jedi"esque.

    I suppose it's possible to still work in her smuggler angle somehow, and also the other Kaarde characters. I can't quite see other remaining Zahn characters like Garm Bel Iblis though-he's more or less totally replaced by Saw Gerrera, although Garm seemed more measured/less extreme/crazy.
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  11. #41
    God Save The Queen! Mia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coal Tiger View Post
    It's completely absurd. They're gonna scrap some of the most successful movies they've ever made because some incels got mad? Ridiculous. They need to come up with a new story and push the franchise forward. Obviously it's not Marvel where they can make a few individual movies a year, they need a focused story.

    And what exactly are they gonna replace them with? Carrie Fisher is dead, Harrison Ford doesn't want to do the movies anymore, and Mark Hamill isn't exactly a spring chicken. Recasting the roles is out of the question, and doing animated stuff is a signal that it doesn't matter. Doing a completely different time period is their only option.
    Exactly.

    Just childish and silly. Also there is really nothing to retcon. Because there is nothing in the ST that overtly affects the Galaxy. Palpy is dead (presumably). Rey will probably rebuild the Jedi and look into some way to bring Ben back from the WBW.

    The Sith will probably lick their wounds and re-build, because unless the Galaxy gets their government back together, someone will have to do something about commandeering or destroying those ships. My point is that there is a whole wide Galaxy out there with several stories that can be told.

    Maybe Disney will sit back and see how Dune and the Foundation do at the box office and in ratings and decide that they they don't wholly have to hitch the SW saga just to the Skywalkers.
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  12. #42
    Mighty Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mia View Post
    Maybe Disney will sit back and see how Dune and the Foundation do at the box office and in ratings and decide that they they don't wholly have to hitch the SW saga just to the Skywalkers.
    All the Skywalkers are dead now.
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  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    All the Skywalkers are dead now.
    Rey's around
    -----------------------------------
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  14. #44
    Astonishing Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorIronman View Post
    Rey's around
    Eh, that doesn't really count. I mean I could decide that Abraham Lincoln really resonates with me and decide to change my name to Lincoln but that doesn't mean his family is living on through me.

  15. #45
    Mighty Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperiorIronman View Post
    Rey's around
    What do the Palpatines have to do with this?
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

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