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  1. #76
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    Dr Midnite has had a base that believed he was gay. They've gone through his history and pointed out where that characterization fits and makes sense.
    If I remember right, there's a theory that the original Mid-Nite is gay, and when Wagner introduced Cross, the modern day Mid-Nite, his plan was to make Cross gay. I *think* it was an homage of sorts to the original.....or maybe the theory that the original was gay came about because of Cross.....I dunno.

    But then Cross joined the JSA and I think he went on a few dates with Black Canary. I don't remember anything about Power Girl and Mid-Nite but I might've missed it.
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  2. #77
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    At this point with everything that’s happened with the name of Alan Scott in comics since 2011. I don’t mind him being gay.

    But what about poor Molly? Is Alan gay or bisexual?

    Is Molly his beard?

  3. #78
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    While I'm always happy to showcase diversity in any field, let alone comic books, I did want to say a quick word about Alan Scott and his marriage with Molly Mayne: To those who feel that Alan and Molly never had a convincing romance, I direct you to writer Roger Stern's touching 1992 "Old Friends" story in Green Lantern Corp Quarterly issue number three. This story alone makes me lament the loss of Alan and Molly's relationship in 2020.

  4. #79
    Astonishing Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Generally I agree that retcons which change a major chunk of a character are a bad deal, even when the intention is noble.

    Allan's sexuality is one of the exceptions for me. Saying he was gay fits within the framework of his history; it doesn't actually change anything; he would have still dated those women, he still would have gotten married (twice) and had Jen and Todd. He could have still very much been fond of those women and "loved" them...just not in a sexual way. Allan might as well be single for all the attention his love life has gotten over the last thirty years, so.....saying he's gay doesn't necessarily *change* anything; more like it *reveals* something Allan himself had buried deep down.

    It adds dimension to his relationship with Molly, and it adds to his dynamic with Todd without actually removing or changing anything on the page. It's just Allan discovering a side of himself that, due to the era he lived and grew up in, he had to hide as deep as he could.

    But I totally get not wanting the continuity changed. Most of the time I'm of the same mind.



    I think "making our established characters more interesting and varied and representing a broader demographic than straight white males" is as specific a reason as is needed. I mean, DC can, should, and do create new characters meant to broaden representation, but that's only one option among many and if it's the only option DC uses then we'll have a really weird DCU where nobody was gay or black or female until the modern age.

    If the goal is to say that some established, older characters were closeted, the Golden Age cast is a good place to start. They're safer choices than their Silver Age compatriots, the homophobia of their era helps rationalize why they're in the closet even in the present day, and the thin quality of story and character development of the Golden Age allows more wiggle room to inject changes like these between the lines.

    There's better choices for a gay JSA member than Allan; some of them have even less of a dating history than Allan does, some of them didn't have kids, and everybody seems to think Johnny Thunder was gay in the first place. But Allan's also one of the highest profile JSA members, so his coming out of the closet carries a bigger impact. It seems like a valid balance to me; someone like the original Mid-Nite might have been a better choice, but Allan is still visible, active, and carries a moniker with pedigree, but changing his sexuality won't create as big a kerfuffle as it would with Hal or Kyle or John.
    Pretty much my thoughts exactly. I generally don't like big retcons that completely change a character-- but Alan is unique in that this one facet of him really has no bearing on the last near 40 years of publication and generally fits within it. To be honest, there have been and are potential retcons of this nature I really disagree with that I've seen pushed, and before I was softly against changing Alan but even then, I saw the narrative appeal to it. It works.

    If in the last twenty years we had a few instances of Alan thinking about an old flame fondly, or expressing more interest in women, I'd understand why this could be seen as so divergent... But when did he even do that? In JSA, Justice Society, Checkmate and Starman (where I encountered him most), I genuinely can't recall one time he didn't speak about his love life with a dry, taciturn matter. It was always like he kept it close to the chest because that's what men of his era did, but if he's living a closeted life? That too is a reason someone like him would learn to bottle all that away.

    It works. Alan is and has been my favorite Green Lantern for so damn long and I don't think it's the biggest deal. Again, his love life is basically non-existent post CoIE with his kids being the only way we ever heard about it and it usually reflected poorly on him until he resolved things with Todd.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Stingo View Post
    While I'm always happy to showcase diversity in any field, let alone comic books, I did want to say a quick word about Alan Scott and his marriage with Molly Mayne: To those who feel that Alan and Molly never had a convincing romance, I direct you to writer Roger Stern's touching 1992 "Old Friends" story in Green Lantern Corp Quarterly issue number three. This story alone makes me lament the loss of Alan and Molly's relationship in 2020.
    Shame I missed that one. I'll have to track it down on DC Universe if it's there, but that's still 28 years ago. Nevertheless, that does refute my assertion that his love life was inert on the printed page since CoIE.


    PG and Mid-Nite never dated as far as I know. I think Jimmy and Amanda were trying to lay some groundwork but they left their run before it happened. It sounds like something they'd do, if only for the irony of the world's most lusted-after hero developing interest in a blind man, but again I may just have read too much into that one issue.
    Last edited by Robanker; 06-24-2020 at 07:30 PM.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Pretty much my thoughts exactly. I generally don't like big retcons that completely change a character-- but Alan is unique in that this one facet of him really has no bearing on the last near 40 years of publication and generally fits within it. To be honest, there have been and are potential retcons of this nature I really disagree with that I've seen pushed, and before I was softly against changing Alan but even then, I saw the narrative appeal to it. It works. If in the last twenty years we had a few instances of Alan thinking about an old flame fondly, or expressing more interest in women, I'd understand why this could be seen as so divergent... But when did he even do that? In JSA, Justice Society, Checkmate and Starman (where I encountered him most), I genuinely can't recall one time he didn't speak about his love life with a dry, taciturn matter. It was always like he kept it close to the chest because that's what men of his era did, but if he's living a closeted life? That too is a reason someone like him would learn to bottle all that away.

    It works. Alan is and has been my favorite Green Lantern for so damn long and I don't think it's the biggest deal. Again, his love life is basically non-existent post CoIE with his kids being the only way we ever heard about it and it usually reflected poorly on him until he resolved things with Todd.
    But what about Molly?

  6. #81
    Astonishing Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Evans View Post
    But what about Molly?
    Likely his beard, though she may not have known that was what was going on. He could very well have loved her, but not sexually, or maybe she was an exception? Perhaps he was bisexual. We don't really know much more than what was on the printed page.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Likely his beard, though she may not have known that was what was going on. He could very well have loved her, but not sexually, or maybe she was an exception? Perhaps he was bisexual. We don't really know much more than what was on the printed page.
    Based on the printed page he loved his wife= period. Based on the printed page- which included thought baloons- there is no indication he considered her a beard. Any addition to his past that he was anything but a straight man is based on evidence not given on the printed page and actually in some instances in contradiction to it.

    If they were to have Alan retire and his ring be passed on to anyone, I'd be fine. I could live with the idea that the New-52 Alan as a separate character could have a different orientation than the classic Alan. But to take characters that have established backstories and rewrite those backstories seems like bad writing. There is no panel showing even a hint of Alan being anything but heterosexual and the idea that this was just some hidden layer of his character is ludicrous. You could argue that Lois and Lana and Lori and Diana and Lyla Lerrol were beards and that every incarnation of Superman since Action Comics #1 was just closeted and it would have as much foundation.

  8. #83
    Astonishing Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    Based on the printed page he loved his wife= period. Based on the printed page- which included thought baloons- there is no indication he considered her a beard. Any addition to his past that he was anything but a straight man is based on evidence not given on the printed page and actually in some instances in contradiction to it.

    If they were to have Alan retire and his ring be passed on to anyone, I'd be fine. I could live with the idea that the New-52 Alan as a separate character could have a different orientation than the classic Alan. But to take characters that have established backstories and rewrite those backstories seems like bad writing. There is no panel showing even a hint of Alan being anything but heterosexual and the idea that this was just some hidden layer of his character is ludicrous. You could argue that Lois and Lana and Lori and Diana and Lyla Lerrol were beards and that every incarnation of Superman since Action Comics #1 was just closeted and it would have as much foundation.
    Based on the printed page, he is both weak to wood and not. Based on the printed page, his costume is both cloth and manifested by his powers. Based on the printed page, at one point Alan didn't have children and later on we found out he did at the time of stories where he was not a father. He lost an eye at some point and now he's got it back. Where are your complaints? He also was paralyzed and forced to remain in a giant battery towards the end of Flashpoint, but I suppose that's okay too because that's not where you want to draw the line. Retcons happen all the time and it's not exclusive to comic books. If we're being pedantic, nothing is going to make any sense because over a thousand different creative minds have plugged into the DCU and breathed life into it.

    From the retcon onward, there is no evidence on the printed page to really discuss further than "Alan is very likely gay in continuity going forward."

    But alright, if retcons are bad, I suppose you really dislike Batman trailing the world to build himself into the world's best crime fighter. Originally, he just got strong and got motivation from a bat. He also shot people, so every story since 1939 where he has a hard line stance against using a gun is bad writing too because that itself was a retcon.

    Wait, sometimes they work. Sometimes they're great. Year One itself is a massive retcon and a lot of it is great.

    We're talking Alan Scott, however. Did any of us say he never loved a woman? Of course not. We said that it hasn't been relevant in years (and the most recent cited instance was 1992) because Alan's role in DC has largely been as The Big Guy from the Golden Age. He almost doesn't have a personal life outside his kids, at least not anymore.

    But by all means, let's be pedantic and draw lines in the sand about retcons that are ill-defined other than "but I don't like it."

    I get it, dude. I don't like the idea of some characters having their sexuality flipped (and I hate how it was handled with Iceman, with Jean effectively ripping him out of the closet instead of Bobby organically coming to that decision himself), but as far as characters to do that with, Alan makes a lot more sense than most. He's my favorite GL, but his personal life was not particularly well-developed in the last few decades and only lightly touched upon before that. At most, he had a relationship with his children and naught else. You mention Superman's love interests. They all have significantly more history both recent and long-form to indicate what their particular tastes in partners is, and their personal lives are key components to their narratives. Alan's simply was tertiary at best. Nice false equivalency, though. Points for effort.
    Last edited by Robanker; 06-24-2020 at 10:16 PM.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Based on the printed page, he is both weak to wood and not. Based on the printed page, his costume is both cloth and manifested by his powers. Based on the printed page, at one point Alan didn't have children and later on we found out he did at the time of stories where he was not a father. Retcons happen all the time and it's not exclusive to comic books. If we're being pedantic, nothing is going to make any sense because over a thousand different creative minds have plugged into the DCU and breathed life into it.
    Then find me the instances where canon-Alan (as opposed to New52 or Earth-XYZ) being anything but hetero. Surely with all these minds plugging in there must be some instance like "suit is cloth" vs "suit is ring based" that show his sexuality was ever in question before?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    From the retcon onward, there is no evidence on the printed page to really discuss further than "Alan is very likely gay in continuity going forward."

    But alright, if retcons are bad, I suppose you really dislike Batman trailing the world to build himself into the world's best crime fighter. Originally, he just got strong and got motivation from a bat. He also shot people, so every story since 1939 where he has a hard line stance against using a gun is bad writing too because that itself was a retcon.
    Actually the original origin had Bruce training but never really specified where the training occurred. Now if there had been dozens of stories showing Bruce never left Gotham, you might have a point about a retcon. Although in this case it would be a better example to say that despite the implications of the original origin, Bruce had used a :super-soldier serum" to gain his physical prowess based on the fact that the story never specified that he didn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Wait, sometimes they work. Sometimes they're great. Year One itself is a massive retcon and a lot of it is great.
    So you want BOTH sides of the argument? Or are you just creating strawman responses?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    We're talking Alan Scott, however. Did any of us say he never loved a woman? Of course not. We said that it hasn't been relevant in years (and the most recent cited instance was 1992) because Alan's role in DC has largely been as The Big Guy from the Golden Age. He almost doesn't have a personal life outside his kids, at least not anymore.
    By that logic, if he never has a personal life anyway why define him as straight or gay? He can just be a walking power battery with no sexuality at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    But by all means, let's be pedantic and draw lines in the sand about retcons that are ill-defined other than "but I don't like it."

    I get it, dude. I don't like the idea of some characters having their sexuality flipped (and I hate how it was handled with Iceman, with Jean effectively ripping him out of the closet instead of Bobby organically coming to that decision himself), but as far as characters to do that with, Alan makes a lot more sense than most.
    And I'm saying that there is no need for any existing character to have their sexuality flipped. Whether you think Alan Scott, Charles McNider, Terry Sloan, or Al Pratt is the better candidte to have their sexuality flipped is irrelevant to me since i start from the position none of them should be flipped,

    I'd object to making the original Star-Spangled Kid retroactively Sylvia Pemberton to give the 1940's a teen female (or transgendered) hero. I'd object to making Ted Grant an African American just to add racial diversity to the 1940's JSA. And I object to making one of the established characters retroactively closeted just to add representation to the Golden Age.

  10. #85
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    it's Earth-0'
    Last edited by Crisis; 06-25-2020 at 12:27 AM.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by andersonh1 View Post
    I think people are reading a lot into the story. I didn't get that Alan was gay out of it at all. I'm not okay with it if it turns out to be true. Alan was never homosexual, and I hate this sort of retcon that alters a character's entire history retroactively. At least the New 52 Alan was an entirely new version of the character, but this is meant to be the original. Stick with the original intent. I see no good reason to change him this way.
    You realize that this is Earth-0 Post Doomsday Clock's Alan Scott....not the original Earth-2, not Post Crisis/Glorithverse/ZeroHour/Birthright/InfiniteCrisis universes...it's this universe...this universe can have this aspect...the other universes don't have this.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by sifighter View Post
    Didnít Midnite date both Black Canary and Powergirl at some point in time?
    I dunno if he's talking about Pieter but some people thought Charles McNider was gay cause in one of the Secret Origin issues with him he said something like he was aware that Myra Mason loved him but he couldn't bring himself to tell her that the notion was doomed from the start. I think Thomas later said that wasn't what he meant when he wrote it and that McNider was talking about being a superhero.

  13. #88
    Mighty Member Waterfall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Based on the printed page, he is both weak to wood and not. Based on the printed page, his costume is both cloth and manifested by his powers. Based on the printed page, at one point Alan didn't have children and later on we found out he did at the time of stories where he was not a father. He lost an eye at some point and now he's got it back. Where are your complaints? He also was paralyzed and forced to remain in a giant battery towards the end of Flashpoint, but I suppose that's okay too because that's not where you want to draw the line. Retcons happen all the time and it's not exclusive to comic books. If we're being pedantic, nothing is going to make any sense because over a thousand different creative minds have plugged into the DCU and breathed life into it.

    From the retcon onward, there is no evidence on the printed page to really discuss further than "Alan is very likely gay in continuity going forward."

    But alright, if retcons are bad, I suppose you really dislike Batman trailing the world to build himself into the world's best crime fighter. Originally, he just got strong and got motivation from a bat. He also shot people, so every story since 1939 where he has a hard line stance against using a gun is bad writing too because that itself was a retcon.

    Wait, sometimes they work. Sometimes they're great. Year One itself is a massive retcon and a lot of it is great.

    We're talking Alan Scott, however. Did any of us say he never loved a woman? Of course not. We said that it hasn't been relevant in years (and the most recent cited instance was 1992) because Alan's role in DC has largely been as The Big Guy from the Golden Age. He almost doesn't have a personal life outside his kids, at least not anymore.

    But by all means, let's be pedantic and draw lines in the sand about retcons that are ill-defined other than "but I don't like it."

    I get it, dude. I don't like the idea of some characters having their sexuality flipped (and I hate how it was handled with Iceman, with Jean effectively ripping him out of the closet instead of Bobby organically coming to that decision himself), but as far as characters to do that with, Alan makes a lot more sense than most. He's my favorite GL, but his personal life was not particularly well-developed in the last few decades and only lightly touched upon before that. At most, he had a relationship with his children and naught else. You mention Superman's love interests. They all have significantly more history both recent and long-form to indicate what their particular tastes in partners is, and their personal lives are key components to their narratives. Alan's simply was tertiary at best. Nice false equivalency, though. Points for effort.
    You summed up perfectly. There is no need to discuss further.

    Besides like someone else said in the thread as well, it was ILLEGAL to write openly gay characters back in 40s. This is why OG JSA has little representation. It's a perfect way to examine those years for minorities / LGBTQ+ people. This took nothing from Alan, it added some depth to him.

  14. #89
    Incredible Member Lvenger's Avatar
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    As it's already been pointed out by SacredKnight, I'm not a fan of the Bobby Drake treatment in making an established character with decades of history suddenly come out as gay. It doesn't feel like an organic change, it feels like an easy attempt at pandering by changing an established character drastically. If you can't make a new original gay character who is popular with fans, that doesn't give writers the right to change pre-established characters. Thankfully, this doesn't seem to be handled as badly as Bobby Drake's coming out was.

    The argument that had the greatest validity against making Alan gay would have been that it removes Obsidian and Jade from continuity like it did when New 52 Earth 2 Alan Scott was revealed as gay. But since gay men fathered children in this period, at least Jade and Obsidian can still exist if this does stick.

    Ultimately I believe it's a pointless retcon because Obsidian is a gay man which could be explored and handled by the right writer and I find it unfair to change a longstanding to appeal to a minority that don't really read comics. I acknowledge it would be interesting to explore a superhero who was a closeted homosexual during the mid 1900s but I don't agree that a classic Golden Age character should be co-opted to do this.

  15. #90
    Mighty Member JLH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lvenger View Post
    As it's already been pointed out by SacredKnight, I'm not a fan of the Bobby Drake treatment in making an established character with decades of history suddenly come out as gay. It doesn't feel like an organic change, it feels like an easy attempt at pandering by changing an established character drastically. If you can't make a new original gay character who is popular with fans, that doesn't give writers the right to change pre-established characters. Thankfully, this doesn't seem to be handled as badly as Bobby Drake's coming out was.

    The argument that had the greatest validity against making Alan gay would have been that it removes Obsidian and Jade from continuity like it did when New 52 Earth 2 Alan Scott was revealed as gay. But since gay men fathered children in this period, at least Jade and Obsidian can still exist if this does stick.

    Ultimately I believe it's a pointless retcon because Obsidian is a gay man which could be explored and handled by the right writer and I find it unfair to change a longstanding to appeal to a minority that don't really read comics. I acknowledge it would be interesting to explore a superhero who was a closeted homosexual during the mid 1900s but I don't agree that a classic Golden Age character should be co-opted to do this.
    Couldn't agree more. And having Alan come out as gay doesn't appeal to THIS gay man in the least. I see far more storyline possibilities with reintroducing Obsidian and continuing with his story than scrapping Alan's history for this unnecessary retcon. DC hasn't done the character or their gay readers any great favor here...

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