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  1. #136
    Astonishing Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Evans View Post
    For Powergirl I believe it’s because, outside of the new 52 version being in a sexual relationship with Mr Terrific, Karen never had any personal relationship involved with a man. Her closest intimate relationships were with women.
    From CoIE onward, at least...

    Hal Jordan (they made out, possibly had sex)
    Arthur Curry (she had a thing for him, didn't work out)
    Carter Hall (they made out, but it seemed it was more a casual hookup, it's not expanded on)
    Mister Terrific (relationship)
    Val-Zod (relationship)

    I will admit that for those last two, she was basically used as a prop to build up Michael/Val, but at least for a while, she was dating them.

    She's shown attraction to a number of other men as well, one of which being Clark during the time she wasn't related to him (she even kissed him when possessed by Lust in JSA/JLA Virtue and Vice, where Diana was also present and didn't get so much as a glance from Karen). We don't like to talk about that particular one. The only out I can see there is that her longest-form relationships of any nature are with women, but I suppose that means Blue Beetle/Booster, Fire/Ice, Tim/Conner should shack up too. I will add I'm not against at least one of those pairings, but the slippery slope of "well she gets along best with women" doesn't really hold water because sexuality is a lot more complex than that. Her longest-term relationship is with a woman, kind of, but after she left Earth-2 no person in her cast sticks around long. Huntress isn't really her friend post-CoIE. New 52 they're friends again, but that friendship is functionally inert for twenty years. She has a long sidekick/sister thing with Atlee, who I believe is a minor to begin with, so please no.

    But yeah, she's shown lots of attraction to dudes. More than Alan has with women in a long time, certainly. We've seen a couple examples from a quarterly magazine back in the early '90s and naught else but a speech balloon about having a wife since CoIE. His personal life didn't really get a lot of play. I use PG as an example of a character who doesn't get much page time either, but unlike Alan, didn't even have a stable personal life. Regardless, she got a lot more development on that front in just about any window since CoIE than Alan did. PG, Nightwing, Lois Lane-- all of them still deal with their personal lives and they've been mapped out pretty decently-to-well (happily single unless someone shows promise/a total mess/happily married and has a child, respectively).

    With Alan? He had a wife, some kids, and the rest is kind of hazy but hey, here we are in the present and there's new JSA people! His sexuality was a footnote by that point.
    Last edited by Robanker; 06-28-2020 at 11:16 PM.

  2. #137
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. D. Guy View Post
    It would actually work even better now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Nah, it works better now.

    It used to be a matter of Allan being old school and not quite as tolerant as he could be, despite his own best efforts. Now it's Allan being old school on top of knowing, deep deep down, that his son is braver than he is and living in a world that (mostly) accepts him.

    Allan has to confront the fact that Todd gets to live his life honestly, out in the open, while Allan was forced by society into hiding what he is, even from himself. Now it's not just a matter of "I'm from a less enlightened era and not sure how to handle my gay son" it's a matter of "I'm from a less enlightened era and not sure how to handle my gay son, while also having to confront my own repressed feelings and being a little jealous of my kid, who gets to be open about being gay while I had to bury it."

    It (potentially) adds to the tension of their dynamic, it doesn't have to remove it.
    Yeah, I don't know about that: in my eyes, if we take the GL 80 years special into consideration, the way he expresses stuff and all, being anything less than fully accepting of Todd would, in my mind, make him an hypocrite. And while a gay or bi Alan is a non-issue to me, an hypocrite Alan would break the character in my eyes.

    That said, I'm straight as an arrow and I'm sure there might be some nuance on this take that I'm just not grasping. Which is fine, I'm open to whatever they do with it before I criticize it.


    Quote Originally Posted by M L A View Post
    Not particularly, the worst it got were a couple pages by a couple writers where Alan is awkward about it (but ok with it) and Todd makes fun of him for it.
    Ok! It may have left a bigger impression in e than what actually transpired. I admit my memory is foggy on this one.
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

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  3. #138
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Ellingham View Post
    Alan Scott fan since the mid-1980s, yo. And since my take hasn't really been represented in this discussion, I figured this is the place for it. Haphazard as it is:

    1. In the interest of intended progress, we conscript the past to conform to our present. Alan Scott being made gay as a modern character for stories set in 2020 is fair; the world has changed, and DC needs to evolve to modern social dynamics, and inclusiveness is good.

    2. My Alan Scott is of the 1960s-1990s, and this is just another goodbye to him. But it's not a big loss; I don't read comics these days, and more importantly it's not like Alan has his own stories. He, and the other classic JSAers, lost their agency with COIE and have been primarily used as "mentors" to prop up legacy characters in the JSA over the past 20 or so years, anyway. The real loss here is less tangible, and more problematic:

    3. Alan being a gay superhero in stories set in 1940. In a fantasy, action-adventure story, these sorts of social stories are never handled with any degree of believability.

    Alan is apparently becoming to the JSA what Sal Romano was to Mad Men - a closeted gay character trying to navigate the 1960s corporate world, who eventually marries a woman, has affairs, gets outed, loses his job, etc. The story goes that way because that's what would realistically happen in 1962.

    Mad Men was a brilliant, thoughtful show. It practiced treating the social norms of the 1960s accurately. Mostly. Unlike, say, Downton Abbey- where the protagonists' morality is thoroughly 2010s, despite the show being set in the 1910s. It's done this way to prevent making our lead characters "ugly" by giving them the beliefs and values of the era. Instead, they're "us", and we have time-traveled to the past.

    Modern audiences aren't as accepting of complexity; people have become increasingly binary in their thinking. They want unabashedly "pretty" characters. So when we visit the past, our heroes are imbued with modern values, and characters with period-accurate values are either not present, or or cast as villains. So when Alan is outed to his teammates, will they keep him on the team? The truth is - in 1945, the answer would be no. But in the story, it will be yes. So then - why tell that story? To throw darts at the past, to feel morally superior.

    That's simplistic, and more than a little dishonest. Alan Scott deserves better than being a dart thrown at the world he came from. Especially since we increasingly lack the ability to understand our own complex world, let along a very different complex world from 80 years ago.
    I"m not saying I disagree with you (in principle, I don't), but let me put this question here:

    What if Alan is not outed to his teammates at all, or if he is but not in 1945, but in 2021?

    Think about it: although LGBTQ+ representation in comics has improved a lot in the last decade or so, one category that I think has never got that much of a spotlight is the closeted person. And if we get 80 years of real-time continuity to explore that point of view with him, if his teammates are used, in this instance, to showcase the constant change in moral standards, and all of that? What iof people from 80 years ago are just that, when portrayed 80 years ago, and yet, given the opportunity to exist today, shit just changed? Do you still think it would be a bad take?
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

    To do spoiler tags, use [ spoil ] at the start of the sentence and [ /spoil ] at the end, without the spaces. You're welcome!

  4. #139
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Ellingham View Post
    That's simplistic, and more than a little dishonest. Alan Scott deserves better than being a dart thrown at the world he came from. Especially since we increasingly lack the ability to understand our own complex world, let along a very different complex world from 80 years ago.
    I can respect this point of view, but I'd still like to see DC take a shot at making this work. I think it's possible to explore the 1940s superhero world without sugarcoating it like Downton Abbey, nor making the JSA as morally repugnant, yet accurate, as the characters from Mad Men.

    It ain't going to be easy and it could easily be bad, but, like others have said, I'd rather DC took big swings with these characters than simply give us safe, middle-of-the-road pablum that satisfies no one and will get cancelled in less than a year.

  5. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by K. Jones View Post
    Does he know his first wife is immortal now?
    Wrong. You are confusing the villainous Golden Age Rose & Thorn that Alan married with the more heroic Rose & Thorn created in the Seventies that Alan has likely never even met. The latter is the one who is now immortal; Alan's first wife is dead.

  6. #141
    Mighty Member andersonh1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    With Alan? He had a wife, some kids, and the rest is kind of hazy but hey, here we are in the present and there's new JSA people! His sexuality was a footnote by that point.
    Alan hasn't been a young, single, "dating lots of hot women" type of character in decades precisely because he's been married to the same woman since the 1970s. Many writers seem to hate writing happily married couples because they think there's nothing dramatic or interesting to be mined from a happy relationship. That more than anything is why Alan's home life isn't touched upon that often, that and the fact that by and large he was in a team book where he was competing for page time with a lot of other characters. He's settled with his wife, he's happy, so the JSA series tended to focus on where the drama was to be found, in his relationship with his children.
    "Why do the trunks not "hold up with the times"? What exactly is the problem with them? And don't tell me "nobody wears them" because nobody dresses in a blue body suit and red cape and boots either.

    It's a superhero costume. It's the original superhero costume. It's not real clothing, it's not bound to the ever-changing fashion trends of real life. It's nothing like real life clothing. How exactly can it become outdated?"

  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by andersonh1 View Post
    Alan hasn't been a young, single, "dating lots of hot women" type of character in decades precisely because he's been married to the same woman since the 1970s. Many writers seem to hate writing happily married couples because they think there's nothing dramatic or interesting to be mined from a happy relationship. That more than anything is why Alan's home life isn't touched upon that often, that and the fact that by and large he was in a team book where he was competing for page time with a lot of other characters. He's settled with his wife, he's happy, so the JSA series tended to focus on where the drama was to be found, in his relationship with his children.
    THIS I think the writers were trying to throw some readers a bone, it's there if you really want to believe it, but I think DC is going back to the classical interpretation of the character.

  8. #143
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    Yeah, I don't know about that: in my eyes, if we take the GL 80 years special into consideration, the way he expresses stuff and all, being anything less than fully accepting of Todd would, in my mind, make him an hypocrite. And while a gay or bi Alan is a non-issue to me, an hypocrite Alan would break the character in my eyes.

    That said, I'm straight as an arrow and I'm sure there might be some nuance on this take that I'm just not grasping. Which is fine, I'm open to whatever they do with it before I criticize it.
    Well, there's a degree of hypocrisy at play anyway right? The JSA and OG heroes were all about protecting the weak and upholding freedom for everyone and all that, yeah? So why was Wonder Woman just a secretary? Why did everyone (including Diana and Allan) treat that like such a big honor, when she was more powerful and experienced than a lot of the JSA and had been trained since birth to be both warrior and diplomat?

    It's not so much that Allan is, or would be, a hypocrite. It's more that the culture and society Allan came up in was, and Allan, like the rest of us, must adapt to change. Within the social framework of his day, Allan is extremely progressive and forward thinking, yet when Todd came out in the....90's? late 80's?....Allan struggled with that. He knew he should be open and accepting, but having come from the time he did.....there's a lot of built-in social prejudice to overcome, even for a guy who was forward thinking for his era. And Allan handled that pretty well for an older guy in the 1980's/90's, but by today's standards the same reaction would look nearly barbaric.

    It's not hypocrisy to change your mind when confronted with new facts and arguments. And it's not hypocrisy to struggle with your own experiences and notions and the changes in social norms over time. If Allan is closeted, he can still wrestle with Todd coming out without sacrificing his integrity; he's just wrestling with how the world has changed.
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  9. #144

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    Alan and Molly didn't get married until the 80's. And while Gerard Jones raised the possibility of Obsidian being gay during his run on JLA in the 90's, the trigger on that being made canon wasn't pulled until the MANHUNTER series starring Kate Spenser in the 00's.

  10. #145
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timber Wolf-By-Night View Post
    Wrong. You are confusing the villainous Golden Age Rose & Thorn that Alan married with the more heroic Rose & Thorn created in the Seventies that Alan has likely never even met. The latter is the one who is now immortal; Alan's first wife is dead.
    Except we don't know how the two Roses were combined post-Crisis. Rose Canton was the original from the Golden Age and Rose Forrest was the Silver Age version. In any case, it seems far more likely the two Roses were combined rather than having seperate Golden Age and Silver/Modern Age versions.

  11. #146
    FF purist/snob CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    Yeah, I don't know about that: in my eyes, if we take the GL 80 years special into consideration, the way he expresses stuff and all, being anything less than fully accepting of Todd would, in my mind, make him an hypocrite. And while a gay or bi Alan is a non-issue to me, an hypocrite Alan would break the character in my eyes.
    I get that, but also want to mention the shift in timeframe for current comics. Where a disapproving Alan was more understandable a generation ago, that Alan was also considered 100% straight. Attitudes change over time and what was acceptable, even if not totally cool then, isn't the same now. Lines and attitudes can change and something in a panel decades ago can be changed or just forgotten such as early Golden Age Batman smoking.

    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    That said, I'm straight as an arrow and I'm sure there might be some nuance on this take that I'm just not grasping. Which is fine, I'm open to whatever they do with it before I criticize it.
    That's a good attitude. I'm open to like or dislike anything, but I'd rather see it before making a call.

  12. #147
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Well, there's a degree of hypocrisy at play anyway right? The JSA and OG heroes were all about protecting the weak and upholding freedom for everyone and all that, yeah? So why was Wonder Woman just a secretary? Why did everyone (including Diana and Allan) treat that like such a big honor, when she was more powerful and experienced than a lot of the JSA and had been trained since birth to be both warrior and diplomat?

    It's not so much that Allan is, or would be, a hypocrite. It's more that the culture and society Allan came up in was, and Allan, like the rest of us, must adapt to change. Within the social framework of his day, Allan is extremely progressive and forward thinking, yet when Todd came out in the....90's? late 80's?....Allan struggled with that. He knew he should be open and accepting, but having come from the time he did.....there's a lot of built-in social prejudice to overcome, even for a guy who was forward thinking for his era. And Allan handled that pretty well for an older guy in the 1980's/90's, but by today's standards the same reaction would look nearly barbaric.

    It's not hypocrisy to change your mind when confronted with new facts and arguments. And it's not hypocrisy to struggle with your own experiences and notions and the changes in social norms over time. If Allan is closeted, he can still wrestle with Todd coming out without sacrificing his integrity; he's just wrestling with how the world has changed.
    I think I didn't make myself clear here; let me rephrase.

    The Alan we saw being sort of douchey to Todd was a straight man. So, he was wrong, sure, but that's it.

    However, an Alan that is not only a closeted queer person, but one that is aware of it and somewhat accepting of himself (as seen in GL 80s special) to then be homophobic to his son, that's hypocrisy in my eyes.

    (But then again, they can - and should - retcon that little tidbit out anyway. No loss).
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

    To do spoiler tags, use [ spoil ] at the start of the sentence and [ /spoil ] at the end, without the spaces. You're welcome!

  13. #148
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Oh okay, I gotcha. My bad man.
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  14. #149
    Astonishing Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BohemiaDrinker View Post
    I think I didn't make myself clear here; let me rephrase.

    The Alan we saw being sort of douchey to Todd was a straight man. So, he was wrong, sure, but that's it.

    However, an Alan that is not only a closeted queer person, but one that is aware of it and somewhat accepting of himself (as seen in GL 80s special) to then be homophobic to his son, that's hypocrisy in my eyes.

    (But then again, they can - and should - retcon that little tidbit out anyway. No loss).
    Perhaps as a young man in the 40s, he had hope that the world would one day accept him as he truly was. Given history's path, perhaps he grew old and jaded that homophobia still exists and took out his frustrations in his interactions with his son because being gay probably only brought him pain in his life and he thinks it will do the same for Todd. It's not the best look, but frankly the entire plot with Todd is that Alan is wrong and needs to get over himself and the notions he was raised with to be a better father to his son, so it goes with the territory. If they go with that route, I can only hope it would position both of them to be in a more positive place afterward.

  15. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptCleghorn View Post
    Except we don't know how the two Roses were combined post-Crisis. Rose Canton was the original from the Golden Age and Rose Forrest was the Silver Age version. In any case, it seems far more likely the two Roses were combined rather than having seperate Golden Age and Silver/Modern Age versions.
    We know that they were in fact NOT COMBINED in any way shape or form, post-Crisis or EVER. They were two separate, very different women. They were NOT alternate universe counterparts of each other AND NEVER WERE.

    https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Rose_Canton_(New_Earth)

    https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Rose_Forrest_(Earth-One)

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