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  1. #1
    Mighty Member Timothy Hunter's Avatar
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    Default Was Nightwing Originally Going to Die In Place of Ted Kord in Infinite Crisis?

    During the creation of the 2005 crossover event Infinite Crisis, former Teen Titans financier, Loren Jupiter was originally going to be retconned as a villain. Because of the character's obscurity however, he was replaced with Maxwell Lord.

    Because of Maxwell Lord's preestablished relationship with Ted Kord, him having the role of killing Blue Beetle makes sense. Having Loren Jupiter kill Blue Beetle doesn't. Jupiter has only appeared in a handful of comics, most of them being issues of the Bronze Age Teen Titans and Dan Jurgens' Titans from the 90s. As far as I'm aware Jupiter and Kord haven't even met in continuity.

    However Loren Jupiter being initially chosen to fill the Maxwell Lord role in Infinite Crisis makes more sense given the fact that Dick Grayson was originally going to be killed off during the event until that plan was scrapped. Grayson actually has had a previous relationship with Jupiter in the comics when he was Robin in the original iteration of Teen Titans.

    Is it possible that Dick Grayson was going to play the role of Ted Kord during the Infinite Crisis Special, wherein he would investigate the Omac Project and Checkmate, until dying by the hands of Loren Jupiter?

  2. #2
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Nightwing was gonna die towards the end to reunify the Trinity.

  3. #3
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    I believe the original plan was for Dick to die when he, Superboy, and Wonder Girl destroy that big cosmic tuning fork in the arctic.

    In the actual book, it ended up being Superboy who died, but from what I hear, originally it was going to be Dick who died in that scene.

    Far as I know, the plan was always for Ted to be killed by Max.
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  4. #4
    Mighty Member Timothy Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I believe the original plan was for Dick to die when he, Superboy, and Wonder Girl destroy that big cosmic tuning fork in the arctic.

    In the actual book, it ended up being Superboy who died, but from what I hear, originally it was going to be Dick who died in that scene.

    Far as I know, the plan was always for Ted to be killed by Max.
    I've heard that before, but I think it's possible that it was at least discussed for Nightwing to have died at different times during Infinite Crisis (for instance, there was a rumor that Nightwing was to die during the destruction of Bludhaven) before DiDio came to the decision that he was to kill him off during the climax.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy Hunter View Post
    During the creation of the 2005 crossover event Infinite Crisis, former Teen Titans financier, Loren Jupiter was originally going to be retconned as a villain. Because of the character's obscurity however, he was replaced with Maxwell Lord.

    Because of Maxwell Lord's preestablished relationship with Ted Kord, him having the role of killing Blue Beetle makes sense. Having Loren Jupiter kill Blue Beetle doesn't. Jupiter has only appeared in a handful of comics, most of them being issues of the Bronze Age Teen Titans and Dan Jurgens' Titans from the 90s. As far as I'm aware Jupiter and Kord haven't even met in continuity.

    However Loren Jupiter being initially chosen to fill the Maxwell Lord role in Infinite Crisis makes more sense given the fact that Dick Grayson was originally going to be killed off during the event until that plan was scrapped. Grayson actually has had a previous relationship with Jupiter in the comics when he was Robin in the original iteration of Teen Titans.

    Is it possible that Dick Grayson was going to play the role of Ted Kord during the Infinite Crisis Special, wherein he would investigate the Omac Project and Checkmate, until dying by the hands of Loren Jupiter?
    Yes, I think you're right. They advertised the Event with this blurry Cover of Batman holding a dead body that looked very much like Nightwing.
    I guess they changed it later on when they decided to use Maxwell Lord as villain and moved Nightwings death to a later point of the crisis!
    Last edited by blade48; 06-24-2020 at 01:47 AM.

  6. #6
    Incredible Member Drako's Avatar
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    From Didio in his latest interview.
    https://www.gamesradar.com/former-dc...ally-and-dick/

    With [original Robin] Dick Grayson — and this is the same with Wally — people loved them because they aged with them, so they feel this affinity that these guys have grown up with them. The problem is that much like Batman and Superman, now Dick Grayson and Wally West have to stop aging, because they're going to pass their mentors. Dick Grayson's going to get older than Bruce Wayne at some point, because Bruce doesn't age and Dick Grayson's going to be the older guy if he does keep growing up. Therefore, those things constantly force the reboots that we're faced with, because it creates these log jams and these multiple interpretations of characters all sharing the same name.

    Ultimately, in my mind, we kept on collapsing our timelines and created confusion about how long certain characters were in certain roles, and what they did in those roles. For me, with Dick Grayson, the issue wasn't about the fact that I didn't like the character. In fact, when I said we should kill Dick Grayson, it was purely story driven.

    We were in the middle of Infinite Crisis. The driving point of Infinite Crisis is the fracturing of Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman, and their inability to work together fractures the impact of the other heroes. I needed a defining moment that would bring these three together after all the troubles, something that they can unite over.

    I felt the death of one of the characters that touched them all in a way was going to be the perfect way to do that. Dick Grayson was that character. I felt he was the character that everybody had such a great affinity and love for.

    By putting him in that role that if he died, he would bring Superman and Batman together again and unite our heroes against the great threat, I think that's a noble death, and I think that's something that had value. Same type of death happened in Crisis on Infinite Earths. You want to have that level of importance.

    Think about it: In Crisis on Infinite Earths, they kill Barry Allen, they kill Kara Zor-El, two major characters in the DC Universe. I figured we needed to do something that would be the sequel to that story and we needed a death of equal weight of that character.

  7. #7
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I believe the original plan was for Dick to die when he, Superboy, and Wonder Girl destroy that big cosmic tuning fork in the arctic.

    In the actual book, it ended up being Superboy who died, but from what I hear, originally it was going to be Dick who died in that scene.

    Far as I know, the plan was always for Ted to be killed by Max.
    Yeah, Johns had to sacrifice Superboy to save Nightwing.

  8. #8
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    Killing Dick right after already nuking Bludhaven would have been pure overkill.

  9. #9
    Astonishing Member Riv86672's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drako View Post
    From Didio in his latest interview.
    https://www.gamesradar.com/former-dc...ally-and-dick/
    I get what Didio is saying, and I’m sure it could have been (re) written to make sense in context, but as the story that was published, Dick wouldn’t have worked the way Ted did. If Dick tells the heroes something’s wrong, they aren’t going to doubt him, like, at all...:

    Ted worked because he was the victim of his own reputation, in that other heroes didn’t respect him for being a slacker jokester who basically wasn’t on the same level as them.
    Never mind that he was an inventive genius, self made millionaire, and became a hero to honor a promise made to a dying friend, and when the device that could have given him actual superpowers was lost, he didn’t go back on that promise but instead did things the hard way, training himself and using his mind to become the second Blue Beetle.
    The heroes realizing Ted was right was a big part of that story. They could have saved him if they’d just taken the time to listen.

  10. #10
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Gosh what a (censored!) storytelling

    The only reason Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman are even separating was because
    - Wonder Woman killed Max Lord to save Superman which somehow the other two are being pedantic about it...
    - Batman distrusts Justice League in general because they wiped his memory for a story about a rapist?
    - Superman is... angry about Batman's Justice League Takedown Plan? I honestly don't remember this one.

    The only reason Infinite Crisis even happen in-story was because
    - Superboy Prime wants his world back or something of the equivalent
    - Old Superman was persuaded that this new heroes are too dark and isn't worthy
    - Alexander... I forgot what his deal is...
    Even though their story is over and they're supposed to live happily ever after

    All of that... so they can kill Nightwing so they can bring the Trinity back together and... prove what exactly? It's like solving a problem that they created themselves.

    My point is... the foundation of Infinite Crisis isn't even a thing that needs to happen. They make it that way so... I don't know... why did it even happen?! Because they want a Crisis to repeat the success of the past?

    Like I know why Crisis on Infinite Earths happened because they want to simplify and hopefully get new readers in the aftermath but what Infinite Crisis was for?
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 06-25-2020 at 09:03 PM.

  11. #11
    Astonishing Member Riv86672's Avatar
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    why did it even happen?! Because they want a Crisis to repeat the success of the past?

    ...but what Infinite Crisis was for?
    ^^^That and money.

    Every Crisis and many of their other Events, have been attempts to replicate the impact of the first Crisis. Never mind that these same events also routinely undo the changes of the last event, making things even more complex, high is the exact opposite of what the first Crisis was intended to do.
    It’s like a snake it’s tail.

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