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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    There is another factor here, in that in group standoffs, the lone woman in each group has to have another woman to face off.

    That pretty much leaves only Paula von Gunther, Cheetah, and Circe as well-known adversaries. Silver Swan might have cut it, but is on a lower level.

    Of these, Paula von Gunther would be too similar to Lex Luthor, and is no match for Diana on a physical level. And Circe is quite modern. That pretty much leaves Cheetah as the sole remaining choice.
    What do you mean by this?

  2. #32
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    I don't think Cheetah, as presently presented in stories, is a good arch-enemy for Wonder Woman, if only because she does not threaten what is most important to the heroine. Diana left Paradise, alternately, to stop Ares from plunging the world into eternal war ..or to save the world from the fate that befell the Amazons. Cheetah doesn't check either of these boxes, in my opinion.

    Cheetah is a serial predator, possibly out of control, angry at God, self-loathing, superhumanly fast, mentally ill, a cannibal...smells like rotting fish, cheese and cat-pee. None of these things would wake Diana up in a cold, heart-pounding sweat, when you consider Queen of Fables (or...Queen of Fables), Queen Clea, Queen Atomia, new Circe ..or Queen of Fables (some more). This is not the archenemy profile for Wonder Woman.

    Wonder-rogues, most of them, want to dance around in colorful costumes, babbling amusing gibberish! We haven't really seen the elite of DC Comics' superheroes worried about an archenemy of Wonder Woman's cutting them down and conquering the world. That, in my opinion, is a short list, ..and Cheetah's probably not on it. Truthfully, we haven't really seen any Wonder-rogues give them a reason to worry about any one of them, in particular.

    We just haven't seen a good story about one of them threatening the entire world, in any way that's memorable. That story hasn't been written.

    The new Circe wants to conquer the world, because the kingdom of Colchis, whom she once protected with her magic, forced her to marry an abusive warrior-king, ..to seal an alliance. Brutalized by him, she killed the king, and the horrified people of both kingdoms drove her out. For this betrayal, after wandering the universe for centuries, unlocking its secrets, ..she now uses her sorcery to conquer all mankind! THAT is a backstory and motivation that sets her on an apocalyptic collision with Wonder Woman...

    The recipe for arch-enmity.
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 06-25-2020 at 08:53 PM.
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  3. #33
    Chad Jar Jar Pinsir's Avatar
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    I don't think the super friends argument holds, in part because Giganta's role in the television show did nothing for her (The character hasn't been featured as a major villain in a Wonder woman story for almost 5 decades now).

    It really has to do with the comics.
    Want to read Wonder Woman stories, but don't know where to start? Check out my top 10 lists for Golden Age, Silver Age, Bronze Age and Modern Age Wonder Woman tales!

  4. #34
    Fantastic Member Psy-lock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    I don't think the super friends argument holds, in part because Giganta's role in the television show did nothing for her (The character hasn't been featured as a major villain in a Wonder woman story for almost 5 decades now).

    It really has to do with the comics.
    In Super Friends Giganta was more of an Apache Chief's nemesis than Wonder Woman's, that's probably why. And she's still the second most frequently used WW villain in outside media

  5. #35
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    What do you mean by this?
    That Circe is quite new as a Wonder Woman villain. Sure, she had an early Kanigher adventure back in 1949, but in the Silver Age she was just as much a Superman adversary as a Wonder Woman adversary—maybe more.

    It wasn't until Pérez that Circe became a clear Wonder Woman adversary.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  6. #36
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    When you consider Ming the Merciless, Luthor, Darth Vader, the Joker and Loki...Circe? C'mon. She's BS. She's nothing, ..even with the new backstory.

    Wonder Woman, as a character, isn't about chasing disaster, chasing crime ..or chasing anything, ..and I think that's all Cheetah has to offer. "Come chase me, before I do something bad, Diana!" No, no, no - that is not what the WW comic is about, and that is why she continues to ring hollow, as Diana's arch. It's why we are having this conversation.

    When we look at Cheetah, beyond her Super Friends thing, she just doesn't measure up.

    I posted a thread, recently, challenging our fellow fans to trim WW's rogues gallery down to TEN super-villains. The point of the thread was to keep the ten most useful, possibly the best, villains, in play. One of the postors, who responded, asked if we could keep sixteen. We couldn't imagine ten, and it was a very lonely thread. Nobody wanted to play this game or admit that most of her rogues are kept around for sentimental value...

    And some of them are just garbage.
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  7. #37
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    Pretty much what everyone else has said, Cheetah's been used more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    When you consider Ming the Merciless, Luthor, Darth Vader, the Joker and Loki...Circe? C'mon. She's BS. She's nothing, ..even with the new backstory.

    Ming the Merciless is an outdated yellow peril joke. Circe isn't on the same level as Joker, Luthor or Vader but neither are any of the WW villains you've championed before so by your logic none of them are worth a damn. I've seen you actually claim Atomica of all characters could make it big over Circe.



    Wonder Woman, as a character, isn't about chasing disaster, chasing crime ..or chasing anything, ..and I think that's all Cheetah has to offer. "Come chase me, before I do something bad, Diana!" No, no, no - that is not what the WW comic is about, and that is why she continues to ring hollow, as Diana's arch. It's why we are having this conversation.
    Isn't one of your complaints that Wonder Woman doesn't act enough like a regular superhero?
    Last edited by Agent Z; 06-26-2020 at 02:38 AM.

  8. #38
    Fantastic Member Psy-lock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    When you consider Ming the Merciless, Luthor, Darth Vader, the Joker and Loki...Circe? C'mon. She's BS. She's nothing, ..even with the new backstory.
    Right. Circe is nothing, but surely the iconic villainess Queen of Fables can measure up to these guys.

  9. #39
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psy-lock View Post
    Right. Circe is nothing, but surely the iconic villainess Queen of Fables can measure up to these guys.
    WHAT?! I just defended the new Circe, as one of the WW comic's BEST rogues, in a previous post. I even expressed why I thought she was a better archenemy candidate, when compared to the current version of Cheetah. I was responding to the OP, and I meant to type, "...Cheetah?", in the comment you responded to. Thank you for checking that.

    I stand by my comments on the 'TEN super-villains only' thread, recalling an elimination game I hosted, here. No, Cheetah didn't make that survivors list. Should we try to save all of them? Are some of them, and I would put Cheetah at the top of that list, holding the WW comic back, ..limiting its reach or keeping it from growing...evolving into something more people want to read? [Maybe.] That elimination game illustrated, for me, that we have a sentimental regard for WW's villains, even the garbage ones, that doesn't always make sense to some of us or non-WW fans.

    I think we have to admit that and entertain the OP's question. Why is Cheetah, Wonder Woman's archenemy?
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 06-26-2020 at 03:35 AM. Reason: clarity
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  10. #40
    Fantastic Member Psy-lock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    WHAT?! I just defended the new Circe, as one of her BEST rogues, in a previous post. I was responding to the OP, and I meant to type, "...Cheetah?" Thank you for checking that.

    I stand by my comments on the 'TEN super-villains only' thread. No, Cheetah didn't make that list. We have a sentimental regard for WW's villains, even the garbage ones.
    lol, you meant Cheetah? That's even worse. It's true that she's not on the level of Luthor or Joker, but she's still heads and shoulders above any other WW villain and the only one with a chance to catch up to them.
    Last edited by Psy-lock; 06-26-2020 at 03:22 AM.

  11. #41
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psy-lock View Post
    lol, you meant Cheetah? That's even worse. It's true that she's not on the level of Luthor or Joker, but she's still heads and shoulders above any other WW villain and the only one with a chance to catch up to them.
    Heads and shoulders above the new Circe, in Justice League Dark? I couldn't disagree with you, more, ..and I used to HATE Circe, so much that I wanted editors to ban her use in the comic for two years. If we must suffer one of the two, as Diana's archenemy, I think the new Circe outclasses the current Cheetah, for reasons that I outlined, in my comparison of the two.

    ...The new Circe wants to conquer the world, because the kingdom of Colchis, whom she once protected with her magic, forced her to marry an abusive warrior-king, ..to seal an alliance. Brutalized by him, she killed the king, and the horrified people of both kingdoms drove her out. For this betrayal, after wandering the universe for centuries, unlocking its secrets, ..she now uses her sorcery to conquer all mankind! THAT is a backstory and motivation that sets her on an apocalyptic collision with Wonder Woman...

    The recipe for arch-enmity.
    https://community.cbr.com/showthread...=1#post5024698

    I think the WW comic can do better, than the current Circe, for Diana's archenemy.

    I will surrender one position, however. While I would welcome some writer making Barbara Minerva an entirely new character, with a revised backstory and motivation, I think it is too late for that. With Rucka's successful last run and the upcoming picking up his version of Cheetah, a revised backstory, revealing a secret origin or something like that, ..would be very hard for some of us to accept. I think we're stuck with Cheetah, as is, for the foreseeable future.

    But, should she be Wonder Woman's archenemy? That's the question? Is she owed the 'arch', just because she was on the Super Friends TV cartoon, way back in the 70s, ..or was a recurring villain, in the Golden Age?
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 06-26-2020 at 04:12 AM. Reason: clarity, added content and links
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  12. #42
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    If we look back at the Golden Age, we have three archenemy candidates: Paula von Gunther, Ares, and Doctor Psycho.

    All have disadvantages and advantages when it comes to being an archenemy.

    Paula von Gunther was very much tied to Nazi Germany and the Second World War. She represented a capable woman who bought into the ideologies that Wonder Woman fought against, and as such I think Veronica Cale is her spiritual descendant. Both Paula and Veronica also has the problem that they are not the physical match for Diana in any way, and in group standoffs that's a slot that's reserved for Lex Luthor. I think it's also clear that very few writers understand the role that Paula/Veronica has towards Diana: to me that list is Marston, Rucka, and Wilson.

    Ares, while a classic villain, arguably works best in small doses, and as a motivation for the Amazons to send Diana to Man's World. He lacks the personal connection to Diana. He also doesn't work in group settings.

    Doctor Psycho has a lot going for him. He is ideologically the opposite of Diana, and can easily be seen as having a personal animus against her. His power set is also very much the inverse of Diana's, so that's good. But the group standoff thing works against him, as that requires a "mirror" of Diana: another woman who is physically oriented. I think also DC as an institution was uneasy with having a misogynistic man as an archenemy of Diana's, since that would require digging into Wonder Woman's feminism.

    That pretty much leaves Cheetah, though in some ways the role could easily have fallen to the Silver Swan instead. Both modern iterations have a strong personal connection to Diana going for them, as the friend that Diana failed to save. But that also means that Wonder Woman's ideological roots are downplayed, which I don't think is good for Wonder Woman in the long term.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  13. #43
    Fantastic Member Psy-lock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    Heads and shoulders above the new Circe, in Justice League Dark? I couldn't disagree with you, more, ..and I used to HATE Circe, so much that I wanted editors to ban her use in the comic for two years. If we must suffer one of the two, as Diana's archenemy, I think the new Circe outclasses the current Cheetah, for reasons that I outlined, in my comparison of the two.
    Joker has no definitive backstory and no world-conquering ambitions yet he's the most iconic supervillain in comics. I don't think these things matter as much for a comic book villain as having an engaging personality, memorable look and compelling dynamic with their nemesis. And of course having good stories and a strong presence in outside media helps a lot.

    I actually prefer Circe over Cheetah for WW's arch-enemy myself, but Cheetah has many obvious advantages:

    1) She's not a public domain character, so she doesn't have to compete with dozens of other versions of herself.

    2) She's strong but not a god level threat, which means she can be regularly used and defeated without undermining her power.

    3) She fits better with villainous teams like Legion of Doom and Villainy Inc

    4) She was created by Marston himself

    5) She has way more appearances in the comics and outside media than Circe

  14. #44
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    I think Doctor Cyber, along with Queen of Fables, Queen Atomia and Queen Clea, and maybe moreso, ..is a better archenemy candidate, than Cheetah. Given that we are into the Information Technology Age, why a WW movie isn't pitting Diana against Cyber, makes little sense to me. Comparatively speaking, I think that all Cheetah has to offer is giving Diana something to chase.

    If the question came to favoring a female Doctor Doom, over a sad, murderous cat-person, for WW's archenemy...well, is there a contest? Cyber threatens everything that Wonder Woman has devoted her life to protecting. Cyber, at her best, should worry the Justice League, more ..than the current Cheetah.
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  15. #45
    Incredible Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    I don't think Cheetah, as presently presented in stories, is a good arch-enemy for Wonder Woman, if only because she does not threaten what is most important to the heroine. Diana left Paradise, alternately, to stop Ares from plunging the world into eternal war ..or to save the world from the fate that befell the Amazons. Cheetah doesn't check either of these boxes, in my opinion.

    Cheetah is a serial predator, possibly out of control, angry at God, self-loathing, superhumanly fast, mentally ill, a cannibal...smells like rotting fish, cheese and cat-pee. None of these things would wake Diana up in a cold, heart-pounding sweat, when you consider Queen of Fables (or...Queen of Fables), Queen Clea, Queen Atomia, new Circe ..or Queen of Fables (some more). This is not the archenemy profile for Wonder Woman.

    Wonder-rogues, most of them, want to dance around in colorful costumes, babbling amusing gibberish! We haven't really seen the elite of DC Comics' superheroes worried about an archenemy of Wonder Woman's cutting them down and conquering the world. That, in my opinion, is a short list, ..and Cheetah's probably not on it. Truthfully, we haven't really seen any Wonder-rogues give them a reason to worry about any one of them, in particular.

    We just haven't seen a good story about one of them threatening the entire world, in any way that's memorable. That story hasn't been written.

    The new Circe wants to conquer the world, because the kingdom of Colchis, whom she once protected with her magic, forced her to marry an abusive warrior-king, ..to seal an alliance. Brutalized by him, she killed the king, and the horrified people of both kingdoms drove her out. For this betrayal, after wandering the universe for centuries, unlocking its secrets, ..she now uses her sorcery to conquer all mankind! THAT is a backstory and motivation that sets her on an apocalyptic collision with Wonder Woman...

    The recipe for arch-enmity.
    Villains don't have to be some world-ending threat to be an arch-enemy. Despite some fanwanking of his character in recent years, Joker isn't a threat to most if you don't live in Gotham and Luthor is fairly small potatoes as a threat to Superman when in comparison to figures like Brainiac, Zod, or Darkseid.

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