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  1. #46
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I find the cursed sympathetic character rather generic, too - was new (or newly cycled back into fashion) and fresh once, but that was long ago. Can't deny the popularity of the trope, but I'm not into it and really tired of villains having personal connections to heroes before they were villains/heroes. Especially retconned ones (though not an issue in full reboots), since they contradict/twist previously established events. Even if you were going to make her the sympathetic type, I'd have preferred Diana learning, and being stunned by, the truth of her backstory several years down the road. Though I understand the difficulties of that from a writing perspective.

    Gotta say, I still prefer the early post-COIE version over sympathetic Etta-girlfriend one. I mean, there were notable problems there, too, but all in all.
    I think it works because while Perez's Minerva was cool and creepy, an easily grasped motivation and connection to Diana never materialized. You always knew what Priscilla's deal was. Rebirth took the best elements of both and combined them into one much better character (though I think the Alex Ross update for Priscilla could work on its own as well). It's a cliche, but most of these characters are the ones who invented the cliches in the genre. Diana did know Priscilla a bit before she turned, so this is really an expansion on an older concept being re-worked into a modern version.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psy-lock View Post
    The thing I dislike about Barbara being Diana's first/best friend is that this role is supposed to belong to Etta Candy. Without it she doesn't have a strong connection to Diana aside from being Barbara's girlfriend. And Julia also becomes utterly superfluous, and as a result WW's supporting cast is smaller and less interesting. I also didn't like that the other villains were responsible for her transformation into Cheetah. It makes her a victim of manipulation, instead of a victim of her own bad choices. Perez' version is still my favorite, she had just the right amount of tragedy and evilness to be a compelling villain, but the subsequent writers kind of wasted her.
    There is that problem with Etta and while I'm not wild about Rebirth Etta in general (a lot of her scenes could be swapped out with Michaelis and Darnell and you'd not notice the difference), the focus on Julia in the Perez run created the exact same issue. Diana and Etta were never as close as they should have been in the post-Crisis era. The main thing I'd change in post-Crisis and Rebirth is swapping out Etta with her Holliday Girl incarnation, who actually is distinct.

    Julia wouldn't have to be superfluous at all though. Barbara was only with Diana for a little more than a year before she was cursed. No reason at all that Julia can't be brought in as her replacement and they could form their own unique bond. It was on Robinson that we got what we got.

    I wouldn't say Barbara was completely manipulated. She had choices along the way she could have made that she didn't. Diana warned her and she didn't listen. Cale and Godwatch gave her the funds and kept Diana out of the way, but they may have just sped up the inevitable. Comments from Urzkartaga indicate that he and Barbara made a bargain and it only went south when he discovered she wasn't a virgin and so cursed her, but before that she was on board. Later she "surrenders" herself to Cale when there is no immediate need to do so because she wants the Cheetah power back without the drawbacks and is willing to believe Veronica's lie, and then puts all the blame on her and denies her own actions. She's not a reliable narrator and deflects blame onto others for some stuff that is her own fault.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I think it works because while Perez's Minerva was cool and creepy, an easily grasped motivation and connection to Diana never materialized. You always knew what Priscilla's deal was. Rebirth took the best elements of both and combined them into one much better character (though I think the Alex Ross update for Priscilla could work on its own as well). It's a cliche, but most of these characters are the ones who invented the cliches in the genre. Diana did know Priscilla a bit before she turned, so this is really an expansion on an older concept being re-worked into a modern version.



    There is that problem with Etta and while I'm not wild about Rebirth Etta in general (a lot of her scenes could be swapped out with Michaelis and Darnell and you'd not notice the difference), the focus on Julia in the Perez run created the exact same issue. Diana and Etta were never as close as they should have been in the post-Crisis era. The main thing I'd change in post-Crisis and Rebirth is swapping out Etta with her Holliday Girl incarnation, who actually is distinct.

    Julia wouldn't have to be superfluous at all though. Barbara was only with Diana for a little more than a year before she was cursed. No reason at all that Julia can't be brought in as her replacement and they could form their own unique bond. It was on Robinson that we got what we got.

    I wouldn't say Barbara was completely manipulated. She had choices along the way she could have made that she didn't. Diana warned her and she didn't listen. Cale and Godwatch gave her the funds and kept Diana out of the way, but they may have just sped up the inevitable. Comments from Urzkartaga indicate that he and Barbara made a bargain and it only went south when he discovered she wasn't a virgin and so cursed her, but before that she was on board. Later she "surrenders" herself to Cale when there is no immediate need to do so because she wants the Cheetah power back without the drawbacks and is willing to believe Veronica's lie, and then puts all the blame on her and denies her own actions. She's not a reliable narrator and deflects blame onto others for some stuff that is her own fault.
    Perez's Barbara was a villainous take on the Indiana Jones archetype. She became at odds with Diana when she tried to steal the Lasso and add it to her own collection of treasures.

  3. #48
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Perez's Barbara was a villainous take on the Indiana Jones archetype. She became at odds with Diana when she tried to steal the Lasso and add it to her own collection of treasures.
    Yeah but there really isn't a reason for them to regard each other as arch enemies beyond that. Other writers never developed anything beyond that, they just had them fight because it was pretty much expected they do. No personal feud ever existed.

  4. #49
    Chad Jar Jar Pinsir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psy-lock View Post
    In Super Friends Giganta was more of an Apache Chief's nemesis than Wonder Woman's, that's probably why. And she's still the second most frequently used WW villain in outside media
    That has to be Ares though.
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  5. #50
    Fantastic Member Psy-lock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    That has to be Ares though.
    I can't remember any notable Ares appearances aside from the first live action movie, 2009 animated movie, DCUO, first Injustice and one episode of JLU. While Giganta was in Super Friends, Legends of the Superheroes, JL/JLU, Super Hero Girls, Harley Quinn, DCUO, Lego movies, Bloodlines and also had non-speaking cameos in some animated movies and video games.

  6. #51
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psy-lock View Post
    I can't remember any notable Ares appearances aside from the first live action movie, 2009 animated movie, DCUO, first Injustice and one episode of JLU. While Giganta was in Super Friends, Legends of the Superheroes, JL/JLU, Super Hero Girls, Harley Quinn, DCUO, Lego movies, Bloodlines and also had non-speaking cameos in some animated movies and video games.
    He was also in DC Super Hero Girls a few times.

  7. #52
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Villains don't have to be some world-ending threat to be an arch-enemy. Despite some fanwanking of his character in recent years, Joker isn't a threat to most if you don't live in Gotham and Luthor is fairly small potatoes as a threat to Superman when in comparison to figures like Brainiac, Zod, or Darkseid.
    GREAT point, Gaius! Villains don't have to be a world-ending threat to the world to be an arch-enemy. They only have to be a world-ending threat to the superhero, and maybe, Cheetah is that, for Diana.

    Diana may have left Paradise to save the world from conquest by beings, like Hitler, Ares and Circe, but, tragically, cannot free one woman, her best friend, ..from her own demonic nature. I can understand how not being able to give up on Barbara would haunt her. Wonder Woman is nobody's fool. I think Diana would be the first to accept - maybe, through commune with the Golden Lasso - that Minerva was not the person, she thought she was. She would realize that Barbara is a monster, not enslaved to anything, and that their friendship had been a lie. There is no other truth to lay bare, ..and I think that would be the end of Diana's suffering for her.

    However, the upcoming Patty Jenkins movie will probably disagree with me, ..and that is the end of that.
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  8. #53
    Moderator Nyssane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    That has to be Ares though.
    I'm not sure about that, but let's check:

    ARES
    1. 1 episode of JLU as main villain
    2. Wonder Woman (2009)
    3. Playable character in Injustice: Gods Among Us
    4. Wonder Woman (2017)
    5. A few webisodes of the first DC Super Hero Girls
    6. DC Universe Online
    7. Cameo in Justice League (2017)
    8. Scribblenauts Unmasked
    9. Playable character in Lego DC Super-Villains
    10. Playable character in DC Legends
    11. Playable character in DC Unchained
    12. Cameo in Harley Quinn TAS


    GIGANTA
    1. 16 episodes of Challenge of the Super-Friends
    2. 1 episode of Super Friends
    3. Legion of the Super-Heroes live action show
    4. 2 episodes of Justice League
    5. 7 episodes of Justice League Unlimited as team villain
    6. Cameo in 1 episode of Batman: The Brave and the Bold
    7. Cameo in Superman/Batman: Public Enemies
    8. DC Nation Shorts: Wonder Woman
    9. Robot Chicken DC Comics Special
    10. Scribblenauts Unmasked
    11. Cameo in Injustice: Gods Among Us (unlike Ares who had a playable role)
    12. Lego Justice League vs. Bizarro League
    13. Lego Justice League: Attack of the Legion of Doom
    14. Lego Justice League: Gotham City Breakout
    15. A few webisodes of the original DC Super Hero Girls
    16. DC Universe Online (larger role than Ares; plus appeared in promotional trailer)
    17. Playable character in Lego Batman 3: Beyond Gotham
    18. Several episodes of the rebooted DC Super Hero Girls as a primary antagonist
    19. Justice League: Gods and Monsters Chronicles shorts
    20. Playable character in DC Legends
    21. Wonder Woman: Bloodlines as a supporting villain
    22. Harley Quinn TV series as a minor character (bigger than a cameo but not by much)
    23. Justice League Dark: Apoklips War as a cameo


    Now to be clear, Ares definitely has more impactful appearances, and more relevant to Wonder Woman, but that doesn't change the fact that Giganta is used far more often than any other WW villain who isn't Cheetah in outside media.

  9. #54
    Incredible Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    He was also in DC Super Hero Girls a few times.
    Hippie Ares is his best appearance outside of comics.

  10. #55
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Diana may have left Paradise to save the world from conquest by beings, like Hitler, Ares and Circe, but, tragically, cannot free one woman, her best friend, ..from her own demonic nature. I can understand how not being able to give up on Barbara would haunt her.
    I don't think every character/hero needs to be tragic and haunted. I'm kinda tired of it. I'd use tragic/haunted very sparingly. Peter Parker. Maybe Bruce Wayne (he had tragic, but not haunted, really in the old days when I liked him better, when the death of his parents motivated him, but didn't consume him). But it feels like every character has to have a good helping of angst these days, and this kind of angst is one that, by definition almost, can't go away. You lose the villain if it does. But now it seems like every hero has to have a big hurt in their background (irritated about angst inserted to Barry's backstory, too).

  11. #56
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I don't think every character/hero needs to be tragic and haunted. I'm kinda tired of it. I'd use tragic/haunted very sparingly. Peter Parker. Maybe Bruce Wayne (he had tragic, but not haunted, really in the old days when I liked him better, when the death of his parents motivated him, but didn't consume him). But it feels like every character has to have a good helping of angst these days, and this kind of angst is one that, by definition almost, can't go away. You lose the villain if it does. But now it seems like every hero has to have a big hurt in their background (irritated about angst inserted to Barry's backstory, too).
    If Cheetah can't haunt her as antagonists, or frustrate her, what point is there in having her be a villain? Or having any personal villains for Diana?
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 06-26-2020 at 01:57 PM.

  12. #57
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I don't think every character/hero needs to be tragic and haunted. I'm kinda tired of it. I'd use tragic/haunted very sparingly. Peter Parker. Maybe Bruce Wayne (he had tragic, but not haunted, really in the old days when I liked him better, when the death of his parents motivated him, but didn't consume him). But it feels like every character has to have a good helping of angst these days, and this kind of angst is one that, by definition almost, can't go away. You lose the villain if it does. But now it seems like every hero has to have a big hurt in their background (irritated about angst inserted to Barry's backstory, too).
    I think Diana's relationship towards Cheetah as a motivation is very different than Peter Parker's or Bruce Wayne's motivations, and I certainly wouldn't describe it as haunted. In the examples of Spiderman and Batman, they are both directly motivated by a tragedy in the past.

    Diana, on the other hand, is motivated by helping people—that's why she is a hero. Her emotional stance towards Cheetah is a lot more complex. It's both the desire to help a friend, and the knowledge that you failed to help her or him when they needed you. The tragedy here is not driving Diana's heroism, but it might help in driving Diana to over-achieve in being there for her friends.

    But in a way, the personal connection here is arguably a minus for Cheetah as Diana's arch-enemy, because there is no real ideological opposition between Cheetah and Diana: their conflict is entirely based on their personal history.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  13. #58
    Extraordinary Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyssane View Post
    I'm not sure about that, but let's check:

    ARES
    1. 1 episode of JLU as main villain
    2. Wonder Woman (2009)
    3. Playable character in Injustice: Gods Among Us
    4. Wonder Woman (2017)
    5. A few webisodes of the first DC Super Hero Girls
    6. DC Universe Online
    7. Cameo in Justice League (2017)
    8. Scribblenauts Unmasked
    9. Playable character in Lego DC Super-Villains
    10. Playable character in DC Legends
    11. Playable character in DC Unchained
    12. Cameo in Harley Quinn TAS


    GIGANTA
    1. 16 episodes of Challenge of the Super-Friends
    2. 1 episode of Super Friends
    3. Legion of the Super-Heroes live action show
    4. 2 episodes of Justice League
    5. 7 episodes of Justice League Unlimited as team villain
    6. Cameo in 1 episode of Batman: The Brave and the Bold
    7. Cameo in Superman/Batman: Public Enemies
    8. DC Nation Shorts: Wonder Woman
    9. Robot Chicken DC Comics Special
    10. Scribblenauts Unmasked
    11. Cameo in Injustice: Gods Among Us (unlike Ares who had a playable role)
    12. Lego Justice League vs. Bizarro League
    13. Lego Justice League: Attack of the Legion of Doom
    14. Lego Justice League: Gotham City Breakout
    15. A few webisodes of the original DC Super Hero Girls
    16. DC Universe Online (larger role than Ares; plus appeared in promotional trailer)
    17. Playable character in Lego Batman 3: Beyond Gotham
    18. Several episodes of the rebooted DC Super Hero Girls as a primary antagonist
    19. Justice League: Gods and Monsters Chronicles shorts
    20. Playable character in DC Legends
    21. Wonder Woman: Bloodlines as a supporting villain
    22. Harley Quinn TV series as a minor character (bigger than a cameo but not by much)
    23. Justice League Dark: Apoklips War as a cameo


    Now to be clear, Ares definitely has more impactful appearances, and more relevant to Wonder Woman, but that doesn't change the fact that Giganta is used far more often than any other WW villain who isn't Cheetah in outside media.

    Slight correction. Giganta appeared in 2 episodes of Super Friends(non-Challenge episodes): Two Gleeks Are Deadlier Than One and Revenge of Doom(non-speaking role).
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  14. #59
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    From my thread, "Villains Endgame - Expendables and Survivors"...who, without revision or embellishment, ..is the baddest of the bad, among the Wonder-rogues? Who, driven by their sheer hatred of Wonder Woman, will still be standing, after the worst thing ever kills the rest?...who, among them, are perceived as Diana's natural and essential enemies...the not-to-be-missed ones. Who, among them, best defines who Wonder Woman [is], in the way that Luthor and the Joker define their arch-enemies?...
    I think the OP's premise/question is pretty straight-forward and without nuance. Why or how is Cheetah that supervillain?
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 06-26-2020 at 05:14 PM.
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  15. #60
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    But in a way, the personal connection here is arguably a minus for Cheetah as Diana's arch-enemy, because there is no real ideological opposition between Cheetah and Diana: their conflict is entirely based on their personal history.
    I don't think that's entirely true, because Cheetah is in some ways Minerva ending up as a dark reflection of Diana because she wanted to be like Diana...but instead she ended up a beast that represents everything Diana doesn't.

    At least that's my take.
    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I wouldn't say Barbara was completely manipulated. She had choices along the way she could have made that she didn't. Diana warned her and she didn't listen. Cale and Godwatch gave her the funds and kept Diana out of the way, but they may have just sped up the inevitable. Comments from Urzkartaga indicate that he and Barbara made a bargain and it only went south when he discovered she wasn't a virgin and so cursed her, but before that she was on board. Later she "surrenders" herself to Cale when there is no immediate need to do so because she wants the Cheetah power back without the drawbacks and is willing to believe Veronica's lie, and then puts all the blame on her and denies her own actions. She's not a reliable narrator and deflects blame onto others for some stuff that is her own fault.
    Honestly, I think this was my problem with Rucka's take. I think we needed to see Barbara actually make the choice to become Cheetah and embrace that power before we jump to her already as Cheetah like we did. I think he needed to commit to her as a villain more then he did.

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