DC's real problem

[cranger]

King didn't go the distance. The fact that that had to fall back on Tynion, a name that been with the bat books for as you say on and off forever. Or Tomasi, a recurring name thats been around even longer. Just further demonstrates the line current problems. The only kinds of creators that have been able to last are the one they are comfortable with. Jurgens and Lobdell's books are consistently at the bottom of the line. Yet they are the only creators that have lasted since the start of Rebirth. They know how to work with in the system clearly, and in turn the system protects them as they struggle to crack the top 100. That what an old boy's club environment is. The line is lucky to get more then a year out of new creators, they struggle to recruit or cultivate new names, and when they do they run them off. The entire line is in a state a filler for something we now know isn't happening, and is now trying to use speculator bait to pull itself out of its lows.

I get what you are saying, but you are equating things wrong. For starters, the line is fine. Whatever your issue is, it is not with the line. I say this honestly, but are you reading it? This is a great time to be reading some of these Batman books. They can't all be winners, but Batman, Detective and Batgirl are books I can't wait to read each week.

What you talk about is happening throughout the whole industry. Very few people do long runs, and the few you could name are very much in your "old boys club". King still did 85+ issues or whatever, some exec getting squirrely has nothing do with anything you are talking about. That is spin, where else are you seeing all these other writers doing anywhere near that. Whoever else is the model of whatever it is you think should be done, all those books are seeing creative turnover over and over, if they don't get canceled first.

[Johnny]

Oh right, the same individual who wrote "Justice League Dark: Apokolips War", where she killed off Hal Jordan(and Aquaman) in a 4 second flashback scene with no lines of dialogue and after a fan asked why they did that to a founding JL member, she responded that she "was a Kyle stan and 4 seconds of Hal Jordan was all she needed". Ironic that DC let her dump on some of their biggest characters and not being remotely shy about it, but didn't let her be a part of a writers summit. That company's priorities seem totally out of whack.

[Frontier]

Oh right, the same individual who wrote "Justice League Dark: Apokolips War", where she killed off Hal Jordan(and Aquaman) in a 4 second flashback scene with no lines of dialogue and after a fan asked why they did that to a founding JL member, she responded that she "was a Kyle stan and 4 second of Hal Jordan was all she needed". Ironic that DC let her dump on some of their biggest characters and not being remotely shy about it, but didn't let her be a part of a writers summit. That company's priorities seem totally out of whack.

[Johnny]

Huh? What did I say that was so bad? She was part of their Bat writers, so why would they NOT let her be part of that summit?? Yet they would let her write their major characters that way in a major animated release with no problems at all? Why would they be concerned for the former and not the latter? They should've absolutely let her be a part of the summit and they should've absolutely made sure she did not mistreat their characters like that.

[Godlike13]

I get what you are saying, but you are equating things wrong. For starters, the line is fine. Whatever your issue is, it is not with the line. I say this honestly, but are you reading it? This is a great time to be reading some of these Batman books. They can't all be winners, but Batman, Detective and Batgirl are books I can't wait to read each week.

What you talk about is happening throughout the whole industry. Very few people do long runs, and the few you could name are very much in your "old boys club". King still did 85+ issues or whatever, some exec getting squirrely has nothing do with anything you are talking about. That is spin, where else are you seeing all these other writers doing anywhere near that. Whoever else is the model of whatever it is you think should be done, all those books are seeing creative turnover over and over, if they don't get canceled first.

Im reading the line, and the line is trash. They are hyping the hell out Joker War, trying and emulate what they did with Snyder's run, but the book itself is so boring. With 'Tec, i respect Tomasi, but him on batman just doesn't interest me anymore. He's just going through the motions waiting for Joker War. And the non Batman books are horrible. Batgirl is okish, but still just another one waiting for Joker War. Nightwing is embarrassingly bad, abrasively so. Seriously if one wants to see how little the current Bat line actually cares about the quality of its books look no further then Nightwing. As it shamelessly repeats the same story it just told. And thats pretty much all i can stomach of the line. And by the lines numbers i don't think im alone. And this is a line that usually fills out my pull list. Right now all its eggs are in Joker War, but they are so desperate they are giving every thing away in their attempt to hype it to speculators. Its just the same old names, doing the same old things.

And King's run looks longer then it was cause of the double ship, but the Harris getting squirrely on it actually has a lot to do with im talking about.

[skyvolt2000]

Oh right, the same individual who wrote "Justice League Dark: Apokolips War", where she killed off Hal Jordan(and Aquaman) in a 4 second flashback scene with no lines of dialogue and after a fan asked why they did that to a founding JL member, she responded that she "was a Kyle stan and 4 second of Hal Jordan was all she needed". Ironic that DC let her dump on some of their biggest characters and not being remotely shy about it, but didn't let her be a part of a writers summit. That company's priorities seem totally out of whack.

That was a movie.

So I guess Wallace West fans should go after the writer of the most recent DC animated movie that saw him get killed off without talking in 5 seconds.

If you got an issue with it-take it up with whoever APPROVED the script. She can't do anything that they don't allow. They allowed that.

Welcome to how all those fans of characters that have been trashed by DC management. Especially Teen Titan fans. John Stewart fans. Wally fans. Jason Rusch fans.

Especially the fans of those characters butchered in Heroes in Crisis.

Or all the black characters that DC somehow forget when they made that crappy Juneteeth post.


Her doing that film and becoming enemies of Hal fans does not excuse being left out of something that was under the Batman family of books banner.

Then being told she has to correct stories because of said summit-that left her out. That was extra work that could have been avoided if she was there.

[cranger]

Im reading the line, and the line is trash. They are hyping the hell out Joker War, trying and emulate what they did with Snyder's run, but the book itself is so boring. With 'Tec, i respect Tomasi, but him on batman just doesn't interest me anymore. He's just going through the motions waiting for Joker War. And the non Batman books are horrible. Batgirl is okish, but still just another one waiting for Joker War. Nightwing is embarrassingly bad, abrasively so. Seriously if one wants to see how little the current Bat line actually cares about the quality of its books look no further then Nightwing. As it shamelessly repeats the same story it just told. And thats pretty much all i can stomach of the line. And by the lines numbers i don't think im alone. And this is a line that usually fills out my pull list. Right now all its eggs are in Joker War, but they are so desperate they are giving every thing away in their attempt to hype it to speculators. Its just the same old names, doing the same old things.

And King's run looks longer then it was cause they double ship, but the Harris getting squirrely actually has a lot to do with im talking about.

I get it, you are not enjoying it. You are entitled to your opinion. But when you say no one else is, I just can't. Batman is the top selling book. Detective is solid in the 40K's. Easily a top 15 monthly title and DCs second highest. The other books are notorious for low sales, as DC sales across the board are slumping too.

What I am really asking is for you show me where things are being done right. If Batman is trash, based on sales and who they have writing and who is not writing and all this criteria you have given. Who is doing it right?

[Johnny]

That was a movie.

So I guess Wallace West fans should go after the writer of the most recent DC animated movie that saw him get killed off without talking in 5 seconds.

If you got an issue with it-take it up with whoever APPROVED the script. She can't do anything that they don't allow. They allowed that.

Welcome to how all those fans of characters that have been trashed by DC management. Especially Teen Titan fans. John Stewart fans. Wally fans. Jason Rusch fans.

Especially the fans of those characters butchered in Heroes in Crisis.

Or all the black characters that DC somehow forget when they made that crappy Juneteeth post.


Her doing that film and becoming enemies of Hal fans does not excuse being left out of something that was under the Batman family of books banner.

Then being told she has to correct stories because of said summit-that left her out. That was extra work that could have been avoided if she was there.

Remind me again, aren't you and others constantly demonizing writers who you feel purposely mistreat certain characters, and not only that but accuse of them of racial bias in the process, regardless if there's actual evidence for it or not. Here you have a writer who publicly brags about killing off characters that she didn't like and you're telling me that it's comparable to Geoff Johns not writing John Stewart the way you wanted him to or Tom King writing Wally in a crappy way? Did any of these people publicly say they disliked those characters and then made fun of purposely sabotaging them like she did? And this is different because "it's a movie", that's seen by a hell of a lot more people than the comics? lol

Of course she should've been part of that summit, that's why I said their priorities made no sense as to why they would not let her be a part of it and yet allow her to treat their characters like garbage in animation and mock the fact that she did afterwards.

[cranger]

Huh? What did I say that was so bad? She was part of their Bat writers, so why would they NOT let her be part of that summit?? Yet they would let her write their major characters that way in a major animated release with no problems at all? Why would they be concerned for the former and not the latter? They should've absolutely let her be a part of the summit and they should've absolutely made sure she did not mistreat their characters like that.

She did not write the movie story so was not the one who decided to kill Hal, she just made a joke about it.

Warner Bros Animation and the Batman Line Editor are not the same person.

[Johnny]

She did not write the movie story so was not the one who decided to kill Hal, she just made a joke about it.

Warner Bros Animation and the Batman Line Editor are not the same person.

She wrote the screenplay, the story treatment could've said that Hal simply dies in the beginning and it's up to the screenwriter to choose how that happens. The fact that she didn't come up with the overall story doesn't mean she shouldn't be held accountable for the writing choices she made in her screenplay and then making fun of it. The same way DC should be equally held accountable for the bad decisions they make such as not telling her about the writers summit for a line that she was a part of it. It's beside the point that different people are in charge of different divisions at DC, I'm criticizing their overall nonsensical decision making to not preserve their characters' integrity, while purposely not telling a writer who works for them about a summit that concerns her work.

[Godlike13]

I get it, you are not enjoying it. You are entitled to your opinion. But when you say no one else is, I just can't. Batman is the top selling book. Detective is solid in the 40K's. Easily a top 15 monthly title and DCs second highest. The other books are notorious for low sales, as DC sales across the board are slumping too.

What I am really asking is for you show me where things are being done right. If Batman is trash, based on sales and who they have writing and who is not writing and all this criteria you have given. Who is doing it right?

X-Men is an example of a line that has much improve itself, and seems well coordinated, with a bunch of new names to it, in its attempt to usher in a new era for its books. The market is obviously tough right now, but Batman is still one of the biggest brands in the game. That the other books are now apparently notorious for low sales speaks for itself as many of them sink to all time lows.

[cranger]

X-Men is an example of a line that has much improve itself, and seems well coordinated in its attempt to usher in a new era for its books.

X-Men is a mess. Fallen Angels was a flop. Three more of first wave are selling lower than Detective and dropping. That whole line was riding a hype wave from House of X (speculators LOVED that one, too). Now they are about to go into a 24 part mega crossover event. Sounds like everything you are complaining about Batman.

Unless you just mean you like the books for whatever reason. In which case, good for you. I tried, I really tried. But no lie, HiXMen makes me miss Rosencanny. I'd actually go back and buy all the Age of X-Man books I couldn't get past the first issues of if it meant they got rid of Hickman. Hellions was cool, and Wolverine at least has great art, but those books are both getting hijacked for two months so how is that good?

[Godlike13]

DC’s longest tenured Batman book is hardly a fair bench mark for brand new titles. Fallen Angels wasn’t great, but for the most part the X-Books have been consistently good and performing better then they were before. They are at least trying new things with different creators, yet still coordinated enough that every book seems like they are on the same page. Batman and ‘Tec are flagpoles for the industry as a whole. Even at low points they are gonna sell better them a lot of books in today’s market. But that doesn’t mean they are in good shape for their standards, or that pretty much every other book in that line aren’t in rather poor shape.

I’d rather see them takes shots and fail, then see them wither away as they struggle to do the same old with the same names. And even ruin properties under tired creators who just know how to work in the system.

[Steel Inquisitor]

I’d rather see them takes shots and fail, then see them wither away as they struggle to do the same old with the same names. And even ruin properties under tired creators who just know how to work in the system.

Exactly! Marauders are an X-men book where they're pirates and Excalibur are super-heroes roped into the schemes of a super-villain who wants to conquer reality itself! It's been a long time since the Bat-line did something that creative with their titles.

[iron chimp]

...Then why shouldn’t the factory be made better and more efficient?

Hell, we’ve almost all figured out how much collaborative white collar work can be done with wi-fi, and pretty much all comic fans have seen how coordination, cooperation, and *enough* creative freedom in writing stables are more important to long term success than maintaining some stiff-necked hierarchy between editorial, A-list writers, and up-and-coming writers... or else you might miss the next A-lister.

A “summit” today could just be a 3 hour long Zoom meeting. Denny O’Neil seems to have run “all hands on deck” summits that were about maximizing his talents output - and that worked like gangbusters. So why not just make it official policy to involve everyone who’s got a stake in storytelling meetings? You can still have certain a creators carry more weight, but at least everyone will know what they can and can’t do, and can help refine ideas into successful ones.

I mean, I don’t think even the more ruthlessly cold business side of DC would argue that the *needless* micro-managing and creator-alienating moments in DC history have helped raise its profits. Heck, DC seems to have had editorial become liabilities to successful sales too often under Didio’s last years.

@cgranger is right - unfounded speculation on what was discussed is wrong. But as a hypothetical

You invite everyone to your line wide meeting where your summer event for the line is on the agenda.

As the oppisition im going to target the freelancer with the worst contact, offer them 2 years on a c list book with no interference at a better rate in return for what was discussed in that meeting and then im going to wreck your summer. Im either going to get someone to write the same plot in one of my books and have it conclude 2 months eaier than yours so you look like you copied me and everyone is laughing at you or im just going to give everything to bleeding cool and let them leak it and now yr out of a job.

I totally agree a harmonious workplace where everyone is working together for each other is the ideal. But people are people....