DC's real problem

[cranger]

Make all line wide creators exclusive, or simply trust writers they hire. This isn't about Blue Beetle, she was writing a Bat book, she should get a say in her own book, be able to connect with other writers in her own line and be on the ground floor for the future direction of the brand. If those writers at the summit torpedo a successful storyline Batgirl had with readers for their latest event it wouldn't her fault, it would be theirs. They'd have sabotaged her title!

Corporate structures are inherently unfair, they're also notorious for sabotaging their own business when it's a "Boys Club."

Do any of us know which summit this was? DC is not known for summits. The only one that had any news was the 2018 writers (not Bat Family) summit, which was in June. She would have just been hired on with maybe an issue or two completed. Could she have been there? I don't know (and the non-exclusive thing seems to be a Marvel thing, not DC), neither does anyone else, but according to Bleeding Cool, several people were not invited. Interestingly, Kelly Sue Deconnick was there even though her Aquaman book was not coming out for another 6 months. I am curious who else was absent, surely it was someone bigger than Scott for BG to bother teasing rumors.

So, what other Bat Family summits have there been? Can anyone here reference any other meetings occurring? Was this person she ran into going to that line wide June 2018 summit, or some other one? Anyone know the actual purpose for any of these summits? Seriously, don't we think we should pause for a second before making claims of unfair treatment?

That's difficult to do when their own editors and fellow writers are sabotaging their work without their input.

Again, you don't know this. Hope Larsen talked about writing Batgirl and having to not step on any toes particularly because Batgirl was also in Batgirl and the Birds of Prey. She did not blame anything, it was just a challenge that is part of the industry and she enjoyed her time doing it regardless. Just because every once in a while someone runs into the situation where the particular circumstances leads to them not being satisfied creatively (or financially) we can't just jump to finger pointing like this. Go as far back as you want, there have always been people unhappy with editorial changing their story for whatever reason.

[Frontier]

So, what other Bat Family summits have there been? Can anyone here reference any other meetings occurring? Was this person she ran into going to that line wide June 2018 summit, or some other one? Anyone know the actual purpose for any of these summits? Seriously, don't we think we should pause for a second before making claims of unfair treatment?

I'm pretty sure those summits were a thing back when Denny O'Neill was editing the Bat-Books at least.

[skyvolt2000]

Do any of us know which summit this was? DC is not known for summits. The only one that had any news was the 2018 writers (not Bat Family) summit, which was in June. She would have just been hired on with maybe an issue or two completed. Could she have been there? I don't know (and the non-exclusive thing seems to be a Marvel thing, not DC), neither does anyone else, but according to Bleeding Cool, several people were not invited. Interestingly, Kelly Sue Deconnick was there even though her Aquaman book was not coming out for another 6 months. I am curious who else was absent, surely it was someone bigger than Scott for BG to bother teasing rumors..

Generally those summits don't get made public. They just tend to happen.

I mean if you are planning stuff for the entire line-then everyone shoud be there.

Unless you know for sure what is planned won't affect a book.

I think her gripe is the summit happned and over a period of time a lot of her stuff had to be corrected with respect to that summit. You go from not doing a lot of revisions to doing a ton of them every month.

I think the point is if something involving the main book of a line is doing something-make sure everyone knows so you are not having to fix stuff at the last minute or do unnecessary work.

Kelly might have been there because they might have had something planned for her to do. That has not come out yet.

Marvel, Dc & Archie have paid folks to do stories that end up being fill ins or reserves stories. Tony Isabella did this for Marvel with Rocket Racer, Alex SImmons and Tom Deflaco did at Archie-Alex did with Chuck Clayton and Tom did some stories uncredited for Betty & veronica.

[iron chimp]

Make all line wide creators exclusive, or simply trust writers they hire. This isn't about Blue Beetle, she was writing a Bat book, she should get a say in her own book, be able to connect with other writers in her own line and be on the ground floor for the future direction of the brand. If those writers at the summit torpedo a successful storyline Batgirl had with readers for their latest event it wouldn't her fault, it would be theirs. They'd have sabotaged her title!

Corporate structures are inherently unfair, they're also notorious for sabotaging their own business when it's a "Boys Club."



That's difficult to do when their own editors and fellow writers are sabotaging their work without their input.

Youve been there a couple of months and expecting to see behind the curtain into the high level meetings. Its absolute fantasy. Its the equivalent of me coding a vignetting app for apple and expecting to attend the strategy meeting for the imaging division for the next year after 8 weeks. They are going to come out of that meeting and tell me ok scrap that wide angle vignetting app, you are focusing all our attention of depth of field effects in telephoto lenses now.

If i come out that meeting with the company lifers, and the ballers that bring in the big money and tell you that damian wayne has been kidnapped thats whats happening. If youve written a charming buddy cop story with barbara and damian then yeah... thats not happening now. Im not telling someone whos been here 2 months who has kidnapped him or why... thats confidential info. Sell me 50k copies of batgirl month in month out for 2 years and we will talk.


Ive got the marketing and licensing department on my nuts for stuff to market to 13 to 25 year olds that isnt harley or catwoman. I need a 'nice' popular female character in Gotham. Theyve got corporate on their nuts. Corporate have got global on their nuts. Global have got board on their nuts. Board have got shareholders on their nuts.

Its not a democratic bastion of freedom of expression. Its never pretended to be. Its a publically listed company in a battle with disney with shareholders wanting their dividends.

The cold hard facts are you sold me 25k of batgirl. No word of mouth or hardcore who demanded more like Tom King had with Omega Men. Nothing to suggest everyone slept on the book and that its worthwhile to keep investing to try again to break you.

Ive got peter tomasi here who had to write a batman and robin book with no robin in it. Ive dicked haydan blackmans award winning batwoman, ive told rob leifeld to redo his hawkman arc, ive told a man who has sold me literally 10s of millions of superman books that hes not doing his superman script (that was dan jurgans and supermans arm? Or is that bad memory). Thats the game with a giant corporate art factory. To pretend you didn't know this is completely ingenious in my.opinion

[Digifiend]

Indee, but those "practices" as you say, are there since the begining. So after 80+ years of such practives, DC is still holding strong.
I don't think the real problem in DC is how they treat women. Because they's don't awfull things to men-writters and even to acknowledge writter.
It's like with the event "Flashpoint" - only a select few were aware a reboot was coming. And when it came out, all the writters, even the top-billed ones had to adapt !
AT&T doesn't care how stuff are handled and if it could be handled better. If they see profit, it's enought, they have other fishes to fry.

Yeah, for example, would Teen Titans have bothered with Solstice's introductory arc had they known about the reboot then? It would've made more sense in hindsight for that to be the first arc of New 52 TT instead.

[Gotham citizen]

Do any of us know which summit this was?
[…]

The only things we know are what Scott said, because no one cared to ask to the other DC writers (but also the ex writers) what happened, if they confirm what Scott said and in that case if they can give us some explanation about that.

[cranger]

Youve been there a couple of months and expecting to see behind the curtain into the high level meetings. Its absolute fantasy.

For fairness, we don't know any of this either. There is nothing that says new people were not allowed or that anyone was excluded due to being high risk to spill the beans. Could be, but without even knowing which summit it was it is rather premature to pretend to know the rules of who gets invited. Although there are obviously reasons, it is possible she was left out for reasons other than 'corporate concerns'.

The only things we know are what Scott said, because no one cared to ask to the other DC writers (but also the ex writers) what happened, if they confirm what Scott said and in that case if they can give us some explanation about that.

Yeah I am surprised no one has really backed her up on specifics, for the most part a few people kind of latched onto the sentiment but not the facts. With two 'big journalists' on this I expected more.

[Gotham citizen]

It is a problem of our times: often the "journalists" seem more interested to provoke emotional reactions than tell the facts and dig to find the truth.

[iron chimp]

For fairness, we don't know any of this either. There is nothing that says new people were not allowed or that anyone was excluded due to being high risk to spill the beans. Could be, but without even knowing which summit it was it is rather premature to pretend to know the rules of who gets invited. Although there are obviously reasons, it is possible she was left out for reasons other than 'corporate concerns'.

Yeah I am surprised no one has really backed her up on specifics, for the most part a few people kind of latched onto the sentiment but not the facts. With two 'big journalists' on this I expected more.

I agree. But if it was a proper planning meeting there would have been big things to discuss

Bat/cat - Whats happening there? I dont need joelle jones there as ive told her shes free to do her run uninterrupted as its stylish and popular (and im assuming she will need a break after her run) But after that?

Scott snyders batmancentric events - hows this all going to play out in the flagship books.

The anniversary books for tec, joker, and catwoman - whos in, who from the past do we need to ask if they want to do something, etc

Tec - can we please have some ideas to get this book into top 10

Harley - plans going forward with her.

Its a major hassle pulling together a meeting and getting everyone in the same room so youd expect some proper discussions.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Youve been there a couple of months and expecting to see behind the curtain into the high level meetings. Its absolute fantasy. Its the equivalent of me coding a vignetting app for apple and expecting to attend the strategy meeting for the imaging division for the next year after 8 weeks. They are going to come out of that meeting and tell me ok scrap that wide angle vignetting app, you are focusing all our attention of depth of field effects in telephoto lenses now.

These are the limits of management thinking, where everyone is expendable and the industry they work in is interchangeable because they think workers at a factory making widgets is the same thing is working on a comic book or a movie or a tv show. We're talking about writers on the biggest brands in comics, she's not an intern at K-Mart - she's a writer on a Bat-title.

If i come out that meeting with the company lifers, and the ballers that bring in the big money and tell you that damian wayne has been kidnapped thats whats happening. If youve written a charming buddy cop story with barbara and damian then yeah... thats not happening now. Im not telling someone whos been here 2 months who has kidnapped him or why... thats confidential info.

If the company didn't want writers to have plans for their own characters they wouldn't be hired, if writers aren't trusted why are they there? The A-listers have their privileges but those privileges will bite other titles without proper editing and being no every once and a while. How long the writer has been isn't relevant, especially when they have a great resume. It shouldn't be confidential to the person who's going to write the consequences when they occur. The lower rung writers get the fallout, and the company will lose when they fail because management wants to treat them more like cogs than artists.

Sell me 50k copies of batgirl month in month out for 2 years and we will talk.

Only possible when allowed create freedom and the ability to smooth status quo changes to prevent the book getting destroyed at the foundations because someone thought killing the lead would be dramatic, without warning. Decisions like that kill books, not help them. Do you want that 50k to be easier for the writer or do you want to put as many barriers in their work so they probably fail because their plans have been thrown in the trash?

Ive got the marketing and licensing department on my nuts for stuff to market to 13 to 25 year olds that isnt harley or catwoman. I need a 'nice' popular female character in Gotham. Theyve got corporate on their nuts. Corporate have got global on their nuts. Global have got board on their nuts. Board have got shareholders on their nuts.

And? That's the job, its also the writers job to care for their characters and writer stories which will attract readers, management making that impossible will end up lowering sales, alienate fans and demoralise their writers. None of that means anything if the person with those responsibilities hasn't got a clue how to write a story.

Its not a democratic bastion of freedom of expression. Its never pretended to be. Its a publically listed company in a battle with disney with shareholders wanting their dividends.

Except when the A-listers are involved and those who know the right people, then they get all the artistic freedom they want. If their decisions destroy the lower rung books, editors are going to tell them no, right? No, they'll blame the writers on the lower rung books and be confused why their lines are sagging in sales. This is art, writing stories - and this is a profession which do have people who do exactly that and when this isn't passed down to those who need it in the lower rungs sales fall and writers will flee to the competition when they think they might be listened to more. Look at Hickman, Marvel gave him carte blanche with the X-men line, when he's known for being a huge DC fan and its working splendidly. Ask yourself - why isn't he doing something like that on the Batman line?

The cold hard facts are you sold me 25k of batgirl. No word of mouth or hardcore who demanded more like Tom King had with Omega Men. Nothing to suggest everyone slept on the book and that its worthwhile to keep investing to try again to break you.

You think Tom King is flipping burgers for DC? No, he's making art. If he's writing Catwoman and someone destroys the city she's in without any warning he's going to be lucky to get anything resembling quality to salvage that, and any long term plans he had may be gone. The latter which could be trasitioned to properly if he had warnings about what to expect and opinions on where to take the characters so he's not writing a dead book nobody can salvage because someone higher up the food chain wanted to destroy his status quo. Readers buy stories talented writers give them, they leave when a title gets nuked by management and the creator isn't able to pull the pieces together.

Take a second and think like a writer. This isn't a Ford factory, this is comic books. Stories. Fiction. Media.

Have you ever wrote a fictional story before?

Ive got peter tomasi here who had to write a batman and robin book with no robin in it. Ive dicked haydan blackmans award winning batwoman, ive told rob leifeld to redo his hawkman arc, ive told a man who has sold me literally 10s of millions of superman books that hes not doing his superman script (that was dan jurgans and supermans arm? Or is that bad memory). Thats the game with a giant corporate art factory. To pretend you didn't know this is completely ingenious in my.opinion

This type of thinking is what's hurt comics, I'm not saying its not necessary since it is a business but its a business on selling stories and if editors sabotage their own writers the stories they'll produce will hurt sales. Artists like Liefeld are irrelevant since he's not writing anything. You know what helps line wide storylines? Creators being able to talk wth each other. So when they write things they don't contradict what other writers are doing. DC's going to have problems with sales if Waid has a Superman with electric powers in a magic world but Kelly's writing classic Superman in Metropolis and both stories are meant to be linked together. Editorial micromanaging and mismanaging comic lines has been occurring for years, and when sales fall editors cut writers off from each other it'll be the writers who get blamed.

[Godlike13]

There is a reason why they are called summits and not simple meetings. They are also often called creative summits. What the bat line is doing is planning stories with out the the input of the people they expect to actually then tell these stories. So its not surprising the current line is so crap, and the only creators they can get to stick around are Jurgans and Lobdell. Think about that, i mean really think about it. The 2 lowest selling creators have been the longest lasting. So lets stop pretending there isn't this old boy's club environment here.

[cranger]

There is a reason why they are called summits and not simple meetings. They are also often called creative summits. What the bat line is doing is planning stories with out the the input of the people they expect to actually then tell these stories. So its not surprising the current line is so crap, and the only creators they can get to stick around are Jurgans and Lobdell. Think about that, i mean really think about it. The 2 lowest selling creators have been the longest lasting. So lets stop pretending there isn't this old boy's club environment here.

No offense but that is quite the spin. King was on there forever until some exec or whatever fired him. Tynion is killing it and has been with the bat books on and off forever and could stick around for a long time. Tomasi has 30 issues now and counting, and also killing it.

Jurgens and Lobdell are lifers, for sure but it is not because they are in the boys club really, they just both came up through trenches where editorial mandate was overwhelming and learned to work within it. Jones and Larsen are not the kind of writers looking to get tied down on something like this, yet both had runs that were not exactly short.

You have two writers in the whole bunch who quit, for their own reasons, and one of them was probably at the summit anyway. I doubt he is going to have any better luck arguing with the top dog in his new clubhouse either.

Hill is going pretty steady on his own story, and considering how busy he is, I doubt he would be putting up with crap. Humphries is also doing some fun stuff with Harley for quite a while now.

So I am not quite sure what your complaints are that justify calling the line crap.

[iron chimp]

These are the limits of management thinking, where everyone is expendable and the industry they work in is interchangeable because they think workers at a factory making widgets is the same thing is working on a comic book or a movie or a tv show. We're talking about writers on the biggest brands in comics, she's not an intern at K-Mart - she's a writer on a Bat-title.



If the company didn't want writers to have plans for their own characters they wouldn't be hired, if writers aren't trusted why are they there? The A-listers have their privileges but those privileges will bite other titles without proper editing and being no every once and a while. How long the writer has been isn't relevant, especially when they have a great resume. It shouldn't be confidential to the person who's going to write the consequences when they occur. The lower rung writers get the fallout, and the company will lose when they fail because management wants to treat them more like cogs than artists.



Only possible when allowed create freedom and the ability to smooth status quo changes to prevent the book getting destroyed at the foundations because someone thought killing the lead would be dramatic, without warning. Decisions like that kill books, not help them. Do you want that 50k to be easier for the writer or do you want to put as many barriers in their work so they probably fail because their plans have been thrown in the trash?




And? That's the job, its also the writers job to care for their characters and writer stories which will attract readers, management making that impossible will end up lowering sales, alienate fans and demoralise their writers. None of that means anything if the person with those responsibilities hasn't got a clue how to write a story.



Except when the A-listers are involved and those who know the right people, then they get all the artistic freedom they want. If their decisions destroy the lower rung books, editors are going to tell them no, right? No, they'll blame the writers on the lower rung books and be confused why their lines are sagging in sales. This is art, writing stories - and this is a profession which do have people who do exactly that and when this isn't passed down to those who need it in the lower rungs sales fall and writers will flee to the competition when they think they might be listened to more. Look at Hickman, Marvel gave him carte blanche with the X-men line, when he's known for being a huge DC fan and its working splendidly. Ask yourself - why isn't he doing something like that on the Batman line?



You think Tom King is flipping burgers for DC? No, he's making art. If he's writing Catwoman and someone destroys the city she's in without any warning he's going to be lucky to get anything resembling quality to salvage that, and any long term plans he had may be gone. The latter which could be trasitioned to properly if he had warnings about what to expect and opinions on where to take the characters so he's not writing a dead book nobody can salvage because someone higher up the food chain wanted to destroy his status quo. Readers buy stories talented writers give them, they leave when a title gets nuked by management and the creator isn't able to pull the pieces together.

Take a second and think like a writer. This isn't a Ford factory, this is comic books. Stories. Fiction. Media.

Have you ever wrote a fictional story before?



This type of thinking is what's hurt comics, I'm not saying its not necessary since it is a business but its a business on selling stories and if editors sabotage their own writers the stories they'll produce will hurt sales. Artists like Liefeld are irrelevant since he's not writing anything. You know what helps line wide storylines? Creators being able to talk wth each other. So when they write things they don't contradict what other writers are doing. DC's going to have problems with sales if Waid has a Superman with electric powers in a magic world but Kelly's writing classic Superman in Metropolis and both stories are meant to be linked together. Editorial micromanaging and mismanaging comic lines has been occurring for years, and when sales fall editors cut writers off from each other it'll be the writers who get blamed.

Im not saying its right. Im saying this is the reality. We know its the reality because god knows how many writers have told us when theyve walked away. Its absolutely no secret. It happens at dc and it happens at marvel. If you want unfettered creative expression then you are going to have to go somewhere else.

And it completely is a factory. No different to music hit factories with millions invested in pop groups. Or 'fine' art factories with interns churning out paintings to be signed by the 'name' at the end. Or the ghost writing industry. At the end of the line of dc youve got giant pensions funds and hedge funds denanding higher and higher dividends on their shares in the parent company. So everything is there to meet their desire, not readers

You and i dont care about that - im not paying some exec to tell a writer this is where the book is going. I like the writer so i want them to tell me their story uninhibited. But yeah... thats not always going to happen. Thats why all of us have broken runs where the story did a volte face, jumped the shark, there was a mindwipe, reboot etc and we said f this book now.

[godisawesome]

Im not saying its right. Im saying this is the reality. We know its the reality because god knows how many writers have told us when theyve walked away. Its absolutely no secret. It happens at dc and it happens at marvel. If you want unfettered creative expression then you are going to have to go somewhere else.

And it completely is a factory. No different to music hit factories with millions invested in pop groups. Or 'fine' art factories with interns churning out paintings to be signed by the 'name' at the end. Or the ghost writing industry. At the end of the line of dc youve got giant pensions funds and hedge funds denanding higher and higher dividends on their shares in the parent company. So everything is there to meet their desire, not readers

You and i dont care about that - im not paying some exec to tell a writer this is where the book is going. I like the writer so i want them to tell me their story uninhibited. But yeah... thats not always going to happen. Thats why all of us have broken runs where the story did a volte face, jumped the shark, there was a mindwipe, reboot etc and we said f this book now.

...Then why shouldn’t the factory be made better and more efficient?

Hell, we’ve almost all figured out how much collaborative white collar work can be done with wi-fi, and pretty much all comic fans have seen how coordination, cooperation, and *enough* creative freedom in writing stables are more important to long term success than maintaining some stiff-necked hierarchy between editorial, A-list writers, and up-and-coming writers... or else you might miss the next A-lister.

A “summit” today could just be a 3 hour long Zoom meeting. Denny O’Neil seems to have run “all hands on deck” summits that were about maximizing his talents output - and that worked like gangbusters. So why not just make it official policy to involve everyone who’s got a stake in storytelling meetings? You can still have certain a creators carry more weight, but at least everyone will know what they can and can’t do, and can help refine ideas into successful ones.

I mean, I don’t think even the more ruthlessly cold business side of DC would argue that the *needless* micro-managing and creator-alienating moments in DC history have helped raise its profits. Heck, DC seems to have had editorial become liabilities to successful sales too often under Didio’s last years.

[Godlike13]

No offense but that is quite the spin. King was on there forever until some exec or whatever fired him. Tynion is killing it and has been with the bat books on and off forever and could stick around for a long time. Tomasi has 30 issues now and counting, and also killing it.

Jurgens and Lobdell are lifers, for sure but it is not because they are in the boys club really, they just both came up through trenches where editorial mandate was overwhelming and learned to work within it. Jones and Larsen are not the kind of writers looking to get tied down on something like this, yet both had runs that were not exactly short.

You have two writers in the whole bunch who quit, for their own reasons, and one of them was probably at the summit anyway. I doubt he is going to have any better luck arguing with the top dog in his new clubhouse either.

Hill is going pretty steady on his own story, and considering how busy he is, I doubt he would be putting up with crap. Humphries is also doing some fun stuff with Harley for quite a while now.

So I am not quite sure what your complaints are that justify calling the line crap.

King didn't go the distance. The fact that that had to fall back on Tynion, a name that been with the bat books for as you say on and off forever. Or Tomasi, a recurring name thats been around even longer. Just further demonstrates the lines current problems. The only kinds of creators that have been able to last are the one they are comfortable with. And so thats who they now have to fall back to. Jurgens and Lobdell's books are consistently at the bottom of the line. Yet they are the only creators that have lasted since the start of Rebirth. Clearly they know how to work with in the system, and in turn the system includes and protects them as they struggle to crack the top 100. That what an old boy's club environment is.
The Bat line is lucky to get more then a year out of new creators, they are struggling to recruit or cultivate new names, and when they do they run them off. The entire line is in a state a filler for something we now know isn't happening, and is now trying to use speculator bait to pull itself out of its sorry state. The current Bat line is a line of the same boring names readers have seen over and over lazily shelling out mediocre stories. And is just using over used marketing ploys to try and prop itself back up, rather then actually creating quality content.