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  1. #1
    Mighty Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    Default AiPT "Revisiting what never was with the “Superman 2000” proposal", good read

    https://aiptcomics.com/2020/06/25/su...son-dc-comics/

    AIPT posted it today.
    Very interesting, reading it, I found myself agreeing with the writer on a lot of points, that Superman could be bigger if this have happened, but currently is probably to late to work.

  2. #2
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Certain things would need to be reworked but I think it as a general concept it still could work, and would work if implemented. Hell I think something like this needs to be done now way more than it did when initially conceived. Back then things were just kinda stagnant. Right now the whole mythos is in trouble of collapsing underneath the weight of all the BS.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 06-25-2020 at 01:37 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

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  3. #3
    Astonishing Member Dispenser Of Truth's Avatar
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    Oh dang, that's actually mine. Thanks, Ra-El!
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  4. #4
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Good article. Still pissed this never happened, doubly so since the final pitch kept the marriage. God all I want is a big ambitious run executed well, I’m enjoying Bendis bringing the ambition and I still like the books, but the execution still isn’t 100% up to snuff. I guess all we can hope for is that one day Hickman/Ewing or someone like them will get the Superbooks and revamp the line.

  5. #5
    Incredible Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Only hangup I really have with it is getting rid of the marriage but everything else sounds pretty cool. At least some of these ideas found there way into later Superman works like Red Son, Birthright, and All-Star, so not entirely wasted.

  6. #6
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dispenser Of Truth View Post
    Oh dang, that's actually mine. Thanks, Ra-El!
    Nice!

    As a Jerry Ordway fan, the opposing perspective always bummed me out:

    Jamie: There have been some rumors around you and Dan Jurgens being fired from the Superman books. One rumor says two big name writers were interested in doing the books and the new editor fired the two of you to get them. Then the powers that be came down on the new editor and asked him to hire the both of you back. Is this what happened?

    Jerry Ordway: Kind of. I was told that Berganza had no authorization to fire me, but did so on his own while Mike Carlin was away on vacation. When Mike got wind of it, he offered me the job back, but by this time, I had already accepted the Marvel assignments, and I didn’t think it would make for a good working relationship to write for Berganza, an editor who wanted me gone. Dan’s exit was apparently approved, as he had been on Superman for like ten years straight, and they wanted new blood. In my case, I’d only been dialoguing Kesel’s plots for a year, and hadn’t been to a Superman story conference in over five years, so they couldn’t blame me for what was going on in the books! I was looking forward to a fresh start on the character, and Cavalieri had given me a year’s commitment, which I think DC should have honored! They offered me nothing in exchange. This, after twelve years being loyal to them (WildStar notwithstanding).



    Jamie: So if DC offered you work on another one of their other titles, would you take it?

    Jerry Ordway: I want an apology from a higher-up there. None has been forthcoming, despite the fact that I was fired without authorization, in some botched scheme of Berganza’s. I know that Waid, who was apparently offered the book, and then had the offer rescinded, got an apology from DC. Why not me? So no, I won’t work for them, until they treat me with some respect.
    What a weird way to have it end for the guy who started from the very beginning of the reboot. And it's a pretty vintage comic book editorial move: lose the original team only to never properly install the crew they were booted in order to get.

    Worse because Millar didn't even get on a book that Jurgens or Ordway had. How did that ban work if Millar wrote a little before Berganza and a little after? I guess he got by as Immonen's buddy and not actually the main writer, but the experience doesn't sound like it would even be that generous.
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  7. #7
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    My only hang-up with the ideas before were going back to the triangle for three thing. Obviously after going on for over 50 years it'd been rather played out, and I would have preferred having Lois know the secret but developing a different, non-married dynamic. Although, over the past few years I've changed my throught process a bit and kinda would rather go back to Lois not knowing. The triangle for three thing I could still do without. But her not knowing in all retrospect I still think is the most superior status quo over all we've seen in the past 30 years or so. I just don't need Lois chasing after Superman and ignoring Clark. If anything I'd like to see a Lois Lane whom in true investigative mode would be by nature a bit wary of Superman. Believes he's good but still questions all the unknowns. And its Clark she's closer to. Ironically sees him as more of an open book and they get along pretty well from the start. While working out ways to avoid the whole "Clark disappears at inopportune times angle rather have it an established and reasonable situation that for some reason he just doesn't cover Superman, and works out more clever ways to disguise other potentially odd absences. In the name of making Clark work harder and show lots more care put into the ruse, and keep characters like Lois specifically from looking dumb. Really highlight that its not a situation where Lois, Jimmy, Perry, etc are just incredibly dense, rather that just Clark is just as much a man to be reckoned with when it comes to keeping his secrets. He's had tons of practice and is really smart too. Some suspension of disbelief still notwithstanding.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 06-25-2020 at 04:03 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "“Your boos mean nothing, I’ve seen what makes you cheer!”

  8. #8
    Mighty Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dispenser Of Truth View Post
    Oh dang, that's actually mine. Thanks, Ra-El!
    Great read man, really liked it.

  9. #9
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Parts of the proposal aren't a bad idea, really, but the problem I see is:

    1, his detachment - I definitely get what they're going for (the did do a diet version of this to a degree after Infinite Crisis), but it's a contradictory choice for a company that says it wants to make Superman more relatable. Though, it would be fitting for a company that claims that as their goal but still somehow makes so many contradictory decisions about the character.

    1B, this:
    Superman has to think differently from us, and when we see into his head, we should be shocked by the clarity and simplicity of his brilliance and compassion. This is a god sent to Earth not to suffer and die but to live and inspire and change the face of the galaxy by his deeds and reputation.
    Frankly, I love this as a general concept.. but it'll take a very specific kind or writer to make this work *and* to make it stick. And if writers can't even handle writing a wife and a kid.... yeah. Good luck with that. Again, great concept - but only if they find a way to get writers that can handle it, and I don't think there'd be many.

    Three:
    Further to this, it’s important to keep in mind the Superman/Christ parallels WITHOUT being obvious and heavy-handed about them.
    I get what I *think* they mean and that's not bad.... but man, time hasn't been kind to the parallels. They need to go. It's all they seem to have, anymore, and I'd like that crutch taken away.

    Four:
    We’d like to tweak the costume by finally getting rid of the red underpants. This gives us a new look which somehow recovers the more classic, Golden Age, "primal" Superman look and feels like an update. This move also has instant media appeal: Finally, Superman’s smart enough to wear his shorts UNDER his pants.
    As beautiful as most of the rest is, and as careful as they are in respect to the character.... and then they say this.... #$ck them. Straight up. But then, Superman's classic suit hadn't been "New Coke'd" yet, and the late 90s was one of the most cynical times for pop culture, so... still. #$ck them.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dispenser Of Truth View Post
    Oh dang, that's actually mine. Thanks, Ra-El!
    Very interesting.
    Where are the Morrison sketches from? I can't understand what the Goblin-esque creature in the third picture is.
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  11. #11
    Spectacular Member Knightsilver's Avatar
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    Liked a lot of that. But the Clark being an act and marriage being erased needed to be dropped.

  12. #12
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    It's ironic they didn't go with this given what they actually went with in 2000. The whole Brianiac 13 thing didn't sound any less "silver agey" than this was. And this was an actual new direction. How long did that stupid Brainiac 13 thing last. Two years? Three years? And nothing really came out of it? The entire 2000s were kind of a waste. Who knows what would have happened had they actually gone through with this. DC just wouldn't pull the stick out when it came to anything SA back then. I'm surprised Waid got away with Hypertime considering how pre-Crisis centered it is. It finally took Smallville to break the embargo on anything SA related.
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  13. #13
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    The triangle was a bread-and-butter element of Superman, and I still think it's an essential part of the Superman story that a lot of new readers today don't really get to enjoy without hitting the back catalog. It endured for the first few decades of Superman I believe because DC figured readers would "grow out of" Superman but be replaced by young readers. However, as readers started to stay around longer and longer, the triangle got tired and there needed to be a progression. If you're a long-time reader, you rightfully wouldn't want story progression to be thrown out, but the triangle was probably a much easier and appealing jump-on point for new fans.

    Anyway, count me among the group of fans who wish this came to fruition.

  14. #14
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    IMHO we actually saw this came to fruition. Not as a run, of course. But almost all of the main ideas were used here and there by the very same authors in Superman-related titles.
    What was really missed is a strong and completely new approach to the character in terms of characterization. The idea of Superman as he final step in some kind of metamorphosis is extremely powerful; it would have given a lot to the character and it may have become a possible blueprint for movies and series. I actually liked Loeb's and Kelly's run a lot, but the characterization wasn't nearly as innovative as this one - maybe - would have been.
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

    DC writers and editors looked up and shouted "Save us!"
    And Alan Moore looked down and whispered "No."

  15. #15
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    IMHO we actually saw this came to fruition. Not as a run, of course. But almost all of the main ideas were used here and there by the very same authors in Superman-related titles.
    What was really missed is a strong and completely new approach to the character in terms of characterization. The idea of Superman as he final step in some kind of metamorphosis is extremely powerful; it would have given a lot to the character and it may have become a possible blueprint for movies and series. I actually liked Loeb's and Kelly's run a lot, but the characterization wasn't nearly as innovative as this one - maybe - would have been.
    We did get pieces of this proposal. Morrison used some of his ideas in All-Star Superman and his Action Comics run. Waid uses some of his ideas for Birthright and if he does do more work with Superman I’m sure we’ll get more of his stuff. A few of Miller’s stuff ended up appearing in Red Son. But we didn’t get get all of the proposed ideas, particularly in regards to the villains revamp which I would argue is still one of the biggest areas that sorely needs the focus, and the mainline Superman didn't really get to benefit at all which I think is part of why the main Superman books have been so weak and mediocre for decades now. Barring the occasional arc or two of course. But to be fair, it’s not like Loeb, Casey, and Kelly didn’t also have ambitious plans that got blocked by Superman’s garbage editorial.

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