AiPT "Revisiting what never was with the “Superman 2000” proposal", good read

[Dispenser Of Truth]

Very interesting.
Where are the Morrison sketches from? I can't understand what the Goblin-esque creature in the third picture is.

Screencapped those awhile ago, some from the Morrison documentary Talking With Gods while others were floating here and there online. The goblin is I think Mandraak.

[Myskin]

Screencapped those awhile ago, some from the Morrison documentary Talking With Gods while others were floating here and there online. The goblin is I think Mandraak.

I see. Thanks!

[superduperman]

This strikes me as one of those things where there are no good guys. Berganza shouldn't have acted on his own and just straight up fired the creative teams that were already on the books. Carlin was being a bit unreasonable by not being willing to at least sit down with the team to look at what they were proposing. And, to be quite blunt, Morrison and company shouldn't have tried to go behind his back to get this done without involving him. The ball was dropped on all fronts here.

[Flash Gordon]

Great read, DoT.

[Man_of_Tomorrow]

*Sigh* No matter how many times I read the proposal, I will never get bored of it.

One element of the proposal that no mini-series can replicate, the structure of how to do mainline Superman right month after month. Like Morrison did with the Batman mythos, for five years was always fresh, even in its lowest.

[Frontier]

The villain revamps all feel very Morrison. Actually a lot of this seemed like Morrison leading the charge aside from undoing the marriage, which is probably why a lot of the basic gist was condensed into All Star Superman.

IMHO we actually saw this came to fruition. Not as a run, of course. But almost all of the main ideas were used here and there by the very same authors in Superman-related titles.
What was really missed is a strong and completely new approach to the character in terms of characterization. The idea of Superman as he final step in some kind of metamorphosis is extremely powerful; it would have given a lot to the character and it may have become a possible blueprint for movies and series. I actually liked Loeb's and Kelly's run a lot, but the characterization wasn't nearly as innovative as this one - maybe - would have been.

Yeah, Luthor ended up going back to his mad scientist roots, Pa Kent died, Cat and Steve came back to the supporting cast, etc.

[OpaqueGiraffe17]

This strikes me as one of those things where there are no good guys. Berganza shouldn't have acted on his own and just straight up fired the creative teams that were already on the books. Carlin was being a bit unreasonable by not being willing to at least sit down with the team to look at what they were proposing. And, to be quite blunt, Morrison and company shouldn't have tried to go behind his back to get this done without involving him. The ball was dropped on all fronts here.

Is Morrison hard to work with? Love his work, but wasn’t didn’t he screw over Perez in the new 52?

[superduperman]

Is Morrison hard to work with? Love his work, but wasn’t didn’t he screw over Perez in the new 52?

My understanding of the New 52 situation, and I'm probably not the person to ask, is that DC gave Perez the assignment without telling him what Morrison was doing. So one hand didn't know what the other was doing. And my understanding is that that was common during the early New 52. You had trades that had to have lines re-written because they referenced the pre-Flashpoint continuity. I think at one point even Perez thought that the marriage had happened. No one knew what the new continuity was yet. I don't know what Morrison was told, and I don't know what Perez was told. I'm just repeating what I've read elsewhere. But Perez was trying to establish New 52 continuity at the same time Morrison was.

[Vordan]

This strikes me as one of those things where there are no good guys. Berganza shouldn't have acted on his own and just straight up fired the creative teams that were already on the books. Carlin was being a bit unreasonable by not being willing to at least sit down with the team to look at what they were proposing. And, to be quite blunt, Morrison and company shouldn't have tried to go behind his back to get this done without involving him. The ball was dropped on all fronts here.

I don’t think the four of them knew Eddie hadn’t bothered to inform Carlin of what he was doing. An editor approached them and asked for their pitch and they gave it, that’s pretty standard for the industry. The Triangle Era guys got screwed over, but something needed shaking up. They shouldn’t have been unceremoniously dumped like they were, but that’s not actually that abnormal for the Big 2. You write until you get told your books over.

Is Morrison hard to work with? Love his work, but wasn’t didn’t he screw over Perez in the new 52?

He can be. At Marvel he would turn in his X-Men scripts the day they were due so the editors couldn’t make any changes, because he hated all of their suggestions. But the Perez situation has more to do with DC editorial, they didn’t tell Perez anything, even stuff we knew going into the reboot! They didn’t tell him the Kents were dead, or that Clark and Lois were never married, or what was and wasn’t canon (only Death of Superman carried over and even then only in the most general sense of “Doomsday killed Superman”). And they would literally rewrite his scripts without telling him, make demands without explaining why, DC editorial was a mess and it was an issue across the line. Scott Snyder talked about constantly fighting Dan Didio because Didio would tell him one thing and then abruptly make a 180 and do something else.

[Myskin]

Yeah, Luthor ended up going back to his mad scientist roots, Pa Kent died, Cat and Steve came back to the supporting cast, etc.

I think that these ideas appeared in in-continuity stories mostly because of All-Star and its popularity.
But I also think that many ideas from the proposal were used in All-Star and - to a lesser degree - Birthright and Red Son.
Morrison and Waid were probably the real creative forces behind the proposal. Millar was Morrison's protégé by then and many of his concepts in those days were more or less in line with Morrison's. Peyer was barely involved.

So yes, since Waid and Morrison are still on good terms, if the editors really, really wanted to do it, a revised version of proposal could become a reality with Waid and Morrison at the helm.
The problem is that DC is very different now from what it used to be 20 years ago and I seriously doubt that it would have the same impact it could have had in 2000. They should really focus a lot - and I mean A LOT - on trying to make the character click and work and they haven't taken an effort to do so since the Loeb/Kelly run, so I really can't see it happening now.

[Sacred Knight]

Liked a lot of that. But the Clark being an act and marriage being erased needed to be dropped.

Clark should be an act when it comes to his public appearances. He's not that goofy, he's not that meek, etc. I think that generally needs to be emphasized because when you say Clark is a mask, it gives the impression that Clark wholesale doesn't matter. I don't think that's what any of these guys were going for. But the marriage definitely should have been dropped then and still does. The fact there's been little organic growth in their relationship since 1996 is a testament that it has generally gone nowhere. It was stale when the pitch was made, and still is today two decades later. The only thing it produced was the kid a few years ago in the most laughably inorganic way possible even by comic standards, and he's been every bit the requisite disaster. Hell he's the reason it needs to be dropped now more than ever, as he's actively ruining most everything in the mythos he touches. Erasing him and the marriage would actually put the dynamic to actually being about them again. It can grow all over again in whatever ways they want it to, which is more than can be said for the absolute stasis of going on 25 years now. I know they botched that in the New 52, but there's no reason you can't try again.

[superduperman]

I don’t think the four of them knew Eddie hadn’t bothered to inform Carlin of what he was doing. An editor approached them and asked for their pitch and they gave it, that’s pretty standard for the industry. The Triangle Era guys got screwed over, but something needed shaking up. They shouldn’t have been unceremoniously dumped like they were, but that’s not actually that abnormal for the Big 2. You write until you get told your books over.

Yet another reason Berganza was a garbage person.

[Flash Gordon]

I think that these ideas appeared in in-continuity stories mostly because of All-Star and its popularity.
But I also think that many ideas from the proposal were used in All-Star and - to a lesser degree - Birthright and Red Son.
Morrison and Waid were probably the real creative forces behind the proposal. Millar was Morrison's protégé by then and many of his concepts in those days were more or less in line with Morrison's. Peyer was barely involved.

So yes, since Waid and Morrison are still on good terms, if the editors really, really wanted to do it, a revised version of proposal could become a reality with Waid and Morrison at the helm.
The problem is that DC is very different now from what it used to be 20 years ago and I seriously doubt that it would have the same impact it could have had in 2000. They should really focus a lot - and I mean A LOT - on trying to make the character click and work and they haven't taken an effort to do so since the Loeb/Kelly run, so I really can't see it happening now.

I agree, I think an updated 2020-y pitch like this could work big time. There's been 20 years to see how things work and iron out the kinks.

It's just...Superman has been swirling around the drain for a while now and I'm not sure there's any real interest in cleaning him off. DC will do what is successful...and the fanbase largely seems just happy to have whatever media they can get- ya know? Not really clamoring for quality. (I mean "if you build it, they will come" 'n all- but it'd be hard).

A strong United Front of a vision could really put Superman back on track but it'd need, like, authorial presence and a fully formed aesthetic.

[JAK]

Clark should be an act when it comes to his public appearances. He's not that goofy, he's not that meek, etc. I think that generally needs to be emphasized because when you say Clark is a mask, it gives the impression that Clark wholesale doesn't matter. I don't think that's what any of these guys were going for. But the marriage definitely should have been dropped then and still does. The fact there's been little organic growth in their relationship since 1996 is a testament that it has generally gone nowhere. It was stale when the pitch was made, and still is today two decades later. The only thing it produced was the kid a few years ago in the most laughably inorganic way possible even by comic standards, and he's been every bit the requisite disaster. Hell he's the reason it needs to be dropped now more than ever, as he's actively ruining most everything in the mythos he touches. Erasing him and the marriage would actually put the dynamic to actually being about them again. It can grow all over again in whatever ways they want it to, which is more than can be said for the absolute stasis of going on 25 years now. I know they botched that in the New 52, but there's no reason you can't try again.

I'd put most of the blame on that squarely on DC, though - it doesn't work like it could because DC doesn't hire writers who know how to deal with those things, so it comes off flat. They also have no clue on how to give something time.

And I know these things in general are just things we don't agree on (for obvious reasons, on my part especially) - but even in that framework, I think DC is the reason it's not landing.

[superduperman]

I agree, I think an updated 2020-y pitch like this could work big time. There's been 20 years to see how things work and iron out the kinks.

It's just...Superman has been swirling around the drain for a while now and I'm not sure there's any real interest in cleaning him off. DC will do what is successful...and the fanbase largely seems just happy to have whatever media they can get- ya know? Not really clamoring for quality. (I mean "if you build it, they will come" 'n all- but it'd be hard).

A strong United Front of a vision could really put Superman back on track but it'd need, like, authorial presence and a fully formed aesthetic.

Obviously the solution is another origin reboot!