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  1. #31
    Pro Mutant Anarchist's Avatar
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    Back then it was legit CIS, since he was still inexperienced.

    These days, its more PIS, as he has grown pretty powerful and has shown himself to be pretty competent when the plot allows it.

    It's just that he has to job to the villains of the week to keep the plot going.

  2. #32
    Mokkori... FrenchGemini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchist View Post
    Back then it was legit CIS, since he was still inexperienced.

    These days, its more PIS, as he has grown pretty powerful and has shown himself to be pretty competent when the plot allows it.

    It's just that he has to job to the villains of the week to keep the plot going.
    Also, from my understanding, the events of Crisis, namely

    spoilers:
    Spectre!Ollie giving Barry a boost, and corrupting the Speed Force
    end of spoilers

    nerfed him. (Please note I haven't watched the Flash since mid-S3)

  3. #33
    Astonishing Member Cody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrenchGemini View Post
    Nope, video proof around 7:30 (couldn't get that scene outside of a reaction video)

    Forgot about that, so thanks for the correction. Still well below the feat I mentioned.
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  4. #34
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cody View Post
    Oh, well if that's the case then being kicked off the mountain after being stabbed and being relatively okay and being smacked around by a piece of metal ripped out of a train seat by Damian trumps every single last durability feat DD has ever shown, so Oliver has skill, durability, strength, and speed over DD. That shouldn't even be up to debate as that's been universally agreed upon on here for a long time. Oliver even picked up his training a lot easier and faster than DD did his, showing that he is indeed the more skilled fighter(Talia did not take long training Oliver before he went from being beat on by Ivan Drago to kicking the tar out of him), and picked up on his training from the league very quickly as well, going from being smacked around by Ras to going toe to toe with him.

    All in all, DD only has his superior senses over Oliver.
    Relatively fine? The dude needed help, and took months to heal while being cared for constantly. What imaginable definition of relatively fine are you using?

    Picked up the training faster? Matt had visibly less than a year of training from Stick - he was still a the same-sized child when Stick left - he he was already a better-then-real-human fighter by then. Plus, a lot of the training with Stick was based on mastering his senses.

    And faster? Dodging arrows at a distance thanks to random evasions on a motorcycle isn't the same thing as dodging or deflecting them on foot, nor is it the same thing as dodging automatic weapon fire while on foot and significantly closer, all things Matt did in S1, as has been proven to you in the videos FrenchGemini has posted.

    Also, Matt in Season 2 (he had specifically stopped for Karen) or in Defenders (even more there - he had hung up the tights after S2) did not have more training than Matt in Season 1. He was exactly the same dude. Ollie trained and practiced constantly.

    You cite the hallway scene from 1 like it's Matt's high end, but it definitely is not. Everyone talks about that scene because it's a masterpiece of fight cinematography and direction, not because it's Matt's most impressive fighting.

    You want to cherry pick Ollie's high end feats while picking lower tier feats for Matt. But that's not how we do things here. Even if you only want to go by Season 1 for Matt, he's got feats as good as any Ollie has: winning against a superhuman foe (granted, no reason is given for Fisk being that), one-shotting mooks, handling numerous mooks at a time, etc., plus better ones, like aim dodging automatic weapon fire, deflecting arrow fire, et. al. And if we include other seasons, something we have no reason not to do in Matt's case, Matt's advantage grows. Plus he's got the insane sense advantage. And of course, he's every bit as accurate, if not more accurate, given the things he does with thrown objects.

    Ollie has the "advantage" of a team (with friends like that, who needs enemies?) and the advantage of significantly greater resources for most of his time. Which isn't going to really help him uncover Fisk, since without Matt's senses or Wesly hiring him, which he'd have no reason to do, he'll never even know KP exists or have no reason to suspect he exists.
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  5. #35
    Pro Mutant Anarchist's Avatar
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    I feel like every Arrow vs Daredevil discussion is inadvertenly ending up as a discussion about the quality of the respective shows, not the fight itself.

  6. #36

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    DD in Defenders was actually more skilled than before. The actor and directors noted this in an interview. Matt specifically got sharper because he'd be fighting so much. It shouldn't realy be surprising given Matt improved from season 1 to season 2. I.E. Being destroyed by Nobu t beig able to beat him.

  7. #37
    Astonishing Member Cody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    Relatively fine? The dude needed help, and took months to heal while being cared for constantly. What imaginable definition of relatively fine are you using?
    It took weeks not months iirc, and she outright admitted that all she did was also some bandages on him and gave him tea that was the equivalent to Advil. For someone who was stabbed in the waist and booted off a mountain that's pretty fine. Especially when compared to how long it took DD to recover from far less in between Defenders and Season 3 of Arrow.

    Picked up the training faster? Matt had visibly less than a year of training from Stick - he was still a the same-sized child when Stick left - he he was already a better-then-real-human fighter by then. Plus, a lot of the training with Stick was based on mastering his senses.
    Oliver only took a couple months(if that) before he was comparable to Talia so yes, he picked it up quicker.

    And faster? Dodging arrows at a distance thanks to random evasions on a motorcycle isn't the same thing as dodging or deflecting them on foot,
    No, its a hell of a lot better. You trying to downplay it by saying how "random" it was is just ridiculous. He saw the arrows coming and dodged them while actively driving towards them and firing off his own. Thats above and beyond anything DD did.

    nor is it the same thing as dodging automatic weapon fire while on foot and significantly closer, all things Matt did in S1, as has been proven to you in the videos FrenchGemini has posted.
    Aim dodging is something Oliver and co have been doing since the beginning as well, so this is hardly better than the feat I mentioned. This isn't getting into him outdrawing cupid(who caught arrows fired at her)when she already had an arrow drawn, him taking out a rocket fired at him, or out drawing someone pointing a gun at him, finger already on the trigger.

    Also, Matt in Season 2 (he had specifically stopped for Karen) or in Defenders (even more there - he had hung up the tights after S2) did not have more training than Matt in Season 1. He was exactly the same dude. Ollie trained and practiced constantly.
    This isn't even true. Oliver was trained twice, once by Talia and then later by her dad. Both times involved Oliver picking up the training faster than DD did his, while they both trained constantly off screen.

    You cite the hallway scene from 1 like it's Matt's high end, but it definitely is not.
    That's because this was originally about s1 DD and S1 Oliver. You then changed the goalposts when it was clear the former had nothing in the latter.

    Everyone talks about that scene because it's a masterpiece of fight cinematography and direction, not because it's Matt's most impressive fighting.
    Any real martial artist that watches the even isn't all that much impressed by it like they are compared to other LA fight scenes so what some nerds on a comic site thinks about it is largely irrelevant, especially in a debate here. All this tells me by you bringing it up is that you're reaching for an argument :/. I know you like DD, I do too. But its in part because many of his fights are somewhat more realistic than Arrows that he is completely outclassed in everyway here. Sorry.

    You want to cherry pick Ollie's high end feats while picking lower tier feats for Matt.
    No Big, that is what you're doing here. This was originally about the two of them during their series respective season 1. You then went out of your way to widen the goalposts by going further than that for DD but not for Oliver when it was clear S1 DD was outmatched. Now you aren't even providing any new feats for DD, just downplaying a feat for Oliver, ignoring all the rest, while hyping DD up while not really saying anything new...

    But that's not how we do things here.
    Indeed, so you should stop o_o. You've been here longer than even me so you really should know that we go by feats here...

    Even if you only want to go by Season 1 for Matt,
    And Oliver

    he's got feats as good as any Ollie has:
    So far not in terms of speed, strength, and durability as the hallway fight alone showed.

    winning against a superhuman foe (granted, no reason is given for Fisk being that),
    He also wasn't so this isn't even true, like what? DD never fought any superhuman in s1, sorry. Fisk has never done anything to make him Superhuman, hell Oliver is arguably at least as strong as him in season 1 so im not sure why you think making up feats that didnt occur(DD fighting a superhuman in s1 when no character in this thread is a straight up all around CBPH in all stats, let alone an outright Superhuman)is appropriate.

    one-shotting mooks,
    Not during most of S1 he wasn't. While Oliver was chucking grown men into ceilings with a casual one arm throw during flashbacks that take place before season 1.

    handling numerous mooks at a time, etc.,
    So has Oliver, at a much easier and consistent rate as have already been shown to you which you are ignoring in favour of hyping up a character that you really like..

    plus better ones, like aim dodging automatic weapon fire,
    Aim dodging isn't actually dodging bullets, and Oliver has done this too.

    deflecting arrow fire, et. al.
    Interesting, you seem to think one instance of deflecting an arrow in season 1 is somehow better than all the times Oliver did that throughout season 1. Like, you gloss over the fact that Oliver was doing that while actively driving towards the arrows shot at him, yet somehow you think DD is faster for intercepting one(which Oliver also did back in season 1). Fact is DDs best reaction feats throughout his entire career are those Oliver has done way back in season 1. Please provide feats that trump out drawing people who catch arrows, shooting down a rocket, and dodging arrows while driving towards them. So far you have yet to do so.

    And if we include other seasons, something we have no reason not to do in Matt's case,
    Because this thread was originally about season 1 arrow going up against Fisk. When people pointed out the fact that Oliver was better than Matt, you shifted the goal posts to include other seasons, but just for Matt.

    Matt's advantage grows.
    Not really, as ive already explained above while you arent really providing anything that Oliver hasnt done himself...

    Plus he's got the insane sense advantage.
    While Oliver holds a strength, durability, speed, and skill advantage based off feats.

    And of course, he's every bit as accurate, if not more accurate, given the things he does with thrown objects.
    Nope, Oliver routinely nails tiny objects and shoots through small holes with his arrows just fine, rarely ever missing. DD being able to ricochet his batons off of nearby walls doesnt suddenly make him more accurate.

    Ollie has the "advantage" of a team (with friends like that, who needs enemies?) and the advantage of significantly greater resources for most of his time.
    And superior skill, strength, durability, and speed according to feats, not hype.

    Which isn't going to really help him uncover Fisk, since without Matt's senses or Wesly hiring him, which he'd have no reason to do, he'll never even know KP exists or have no reason to suspect he exists.
    Didnt have any reason to expect his best friends dad either. Fact is Oliver dealt with a more dangerous Fisk when he went hwad to head with Merlyn. While Fisk himself is more physically comparable to, and as skilled as; Brick. Who Oliver casually trounces. So all Oliver will be dealing with is a less dangerous Merlyn.
    Last edited by Cody; 07-01-2020 at 10:34 AM.
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  8. #38
    Rumbles Moderator Guy1's Avatar
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  9. #39
    Rumbles Moderator Guy1's Avatar
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  10. #40
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  11. #41
    Rumbles Moderator Guy1's Avatar
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  12. #42
    Astonishing Member Cody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy1 View Post


    Disappointed in you Guy. You posted a video for Darefleck, yet not for Smallville Green Arrow? Age is catching up to you it seems.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Drunkard Kid View Post
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    I stand by my belief of Toriyama seeing a certain match online and going "Oh Yeah?!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Pendaran View Post
    Every time you say the name of some kind of nonsense martial art, an angel gets its wings, and Val Armorr learns the martial art, retroactively founds it, then super karates the angel unconscious with it.
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