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  1. #91
    Extraordinary Member Cyke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by green_garnish View Post
    Is The Dark Knight a bad influence on people? Joker? Spiderman 2?

    Are people a bad influence on people? How about the president, or the prime minister? What about your local jerk senator?

    Maybe we should add NFL players or coaches, or movie directors, or actors...
    Part of the problem isn't bad characters, it's their creators defending bad characters as good behavior. I'm reminded of how Marv Wolfman blamed Terra in the Teen Titans and defended Deathstroke's pedophilic rape of her, when in reality Deathstroke would have had all the power in such a relationship and everything that made Terra "evil" was a direct result of the failure and/or outright harm by all the adults that failed and manipulated her (DC is only just recently starting to call out Deathstroke on that, courtesy of John Bradley). So then in cop shows that portray police brutality, some shows will use that as a point of critique, some will use the show as a platform to defend or normalize brutality. But even in the case of the former, that could be misinterpreted as encouraging/glorifying brutality by the audience.

    But that's not the end of it; oftentimes creators will state out bluntly that bad characters are bad, and so that's not a problem in and of itself (for some of them, the point *is* to show them as terrible jerkass humans that need to fix themselves) -- it's viewers interpreting those bad characters as heroic and citing them as role models without using critical analysis. Walter White, Don Draper, Joaquin Phoenix Joker, Travis Bickle, etc, are all characters that their own creators say are bad and yet are mimicked by shallow people.

    Lately with all the anti-Asian violence permeating the news, there's also now a slew of articles and pieces by critics and media analysts about how stereotypes in Asian media portrayals have played a role in that violence, which includes not just racism, but xenophobia, sexism, and classism.

    On the other side of the token, Drs. McCoy and Crusher in Star Trek are pretty famous for inspiring a number of people to go into medicine, and Mr. Rogers is constantly cited as a timeless model. That's not to say that every character must be depicted one way or another, but it really goes to show how media literacy and critical analysis of art and entertainment separates those that like Walter White as a character (which is good) and those that like Walter White as a role model (which is *not* good) -- two very different takes.
    Last edited by Cyke; 04-03-2021 at 08:01 PM.

  2. #92
    Incredible Member green_garnish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Umm, no.

    The idea that popular culture has no influence on society is foolish at best.
    Are you seriously suggesting the types of people I mentioned are bit, by and large, popular culture?

    Also, the idea that popular culture defines actual culture is pretty much backwards.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by green_garnish View Post
    Are you seriously suggesting the types of people I mentioned are bit, by and large, popular culture?

    Also, the idea that popular culture defines actual culture is pretty much backwards.
    Popular culture influences culture. I literally proved that in my post, thanks.

  4. #94
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    The irony is copaganda is inherently political yet some people won't acknowledge it but will complain about "politics in muh shows" when someone points this out

  5. #95
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    I don't know if they're a bad influence, necessarily, but they usually aren't very good.

    The best cop shows are the ones that actually show you what cops might actually be like. Homicide: Life on the Street. The Wire. They don't glorify cops, they just present them, warts and eccentricities and all and you can draw your own conclusions. Just like the best shows about criminals, or doctors, or what have you.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    I don't know if they're a bad influence, necessarily, but they usually aren't very good.

    The best cop shows are the ones that actually show you what cops might actually be like. Homicide: Life on the Street. The Wire. They don't glorify cops, they just present them, warts and eccentricities and all and you can draw your own conclusions. Just like the best shows about criminals, or doctors, or what have you.
    Honestly they do glorify them by portraying them as normal. It just shows society isn't worth changing.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    The irony is copaganda is inherently political yet some people won't acknowledge it but will complain about "politics in muh shows" when someone points this out
    Eh, the Capote isms in pop culture are just as if even more prevalant.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by babyblob View Post
    See I enjoy my cop shows. I know they are a little some sided and unrealistic at times.

    The original Dragnet was one of my favorites. I watch Blue Bloods every day (Thought I really hate Danny) and The Shield was a lot of fun.

    Hated the CSI shows.

    I dont mind shows that show a cop as a bad guy or powerful police unions protecting bad cops because that does happen. I just dont want to see a show where every cop is bad or the police beat people every episode.
    The CSI shows were the worst. Forensics actively going around and interviewing suspects... total bullshit.

    NYPD Blue was great in its day and was actually based on real life stories from former cop Bill Clark. The scene where Sipowicz pretends to be a lawyer to get information from a suspect is something that Bill himself said happened alot back in the 70s and 80s. Absolutely dirty by modern standards, but cops pulled that stuff back then in order to get the perpetrator behind bars. Due process went totally out the window.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nate Grey View Post
    Watching the premiere of Law & Order: Organized Crime (wasn't there a L&O thread around here?) my theory is to take all of that, all that Elliot was, and put him in a situation where he's essentially the lone cowboy against overwhelming odds, namely a crime family. Which makes more sense then roughing up perps to solve the case of the week. This time it's him against a villain (Dylan McDermott) that presumably won't get busted till the season finale, if even that.

    Cops like Elliot either need to go the way of the dodo, or be put in a situation where their history works in their favor. The former is easier, the latter almost never happens, but here they found a way.
    Which is what i think they are trying to do. Here he is up against someone who knows how to play the system. A individual who most know is crooked, but can't get the evidence or proof to support a criminal conviction. So Stabler is going to have to bend the rules in order to get him. Which is something the audience will support. Especially if the villain is vile enough.

    But, yes, he can't rough up perps no more and I think that is why they had that bit in the SVU episode where he apologizes to Liv about losing his cool in the interview room.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by CliffHanger2 View Post
    Eh, the Capote isms in pop culture are just as if even more prevalant.
    Haha, I don't follow

  11. #101
    Fantastic Member Mark Trail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyke View Post
    Part of the problem isn't bad characters, it's their creators defending bad characters as good behavior. I'm reminded of how Marv Wolfman blamed Terra in the Teen Titans and defended Deathstroke's pedophilic rape of her....
    It was rape but not pedophilic rape. Terra wasn't a prepubescent.

    Beyond that, I have to admit I haven't followed Deathstroke (or the Teen Titans) since the 80s, but the original story in no way, shape or form, made Deathstroke out to be justified in any of his actions. He was an out and out villain back then. When did the events in "the Judas Contract" get retconned and by whom?

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Trail View Post
    It was rape but not pedophilic rape. Terra wasn't a prepubescent.

    Beyond that, I have to admit I haven't followed Deathstroke (or the Teen Titans) since the 80s, but the original story in no way, shape or form, made Deathstroke out to be justified in any of his actions. He was an out and out villain back then. When did the events in "the Judas Contract" get retconned and by whom?
    I think the problem with Terra is that what was a clear case then is a mixed bag now.

    Terra was always a sociopath is a hair trigger. Slade had no real power over her, as he wasn't the meme bad ass he is now. One scene had Terra casually nearly killing him as they trained together. He simply pointed her at the Titans, and helped her explode.

    That said, having sex with her was obviously rape. She was below the age of consent and obviously, not all there mentally. He certainly exploited her sexually, but all of her other evil is 100% Terra.

    But the story depicted Terra as being a tramp, for smoking, wearing makeup and wanting to bang Slade. Them bumping uglies was meant as a poor reflection of her moral character, as opposed to a poor reflection of his.

    Both were villains, yes. But Slade was an old, tired man avenging his son.

    Terra was super crazy.

    And since then, Slade was depicted as at least an anti-hero. I understand Marv Wolfman's made some defenses of Slade's behavior, though I dunno what.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Somecrazyaussie View Post
    The CSI shows were the worst. Forensics actively going around and interviewing suspects... total bullshit.

    NYPD Blue was great in its day and was actually based on real life stories from former cop Bill Clark. The scene where Sipowicz pretends to be a lawyer to get information from a suspect is something that Bill himself said happened alot back in the 70s and 80s. Absolutely dirty by modern standards, but cops pulled that stuff back then in order to get the perpetrator behind bars. Due process went totally out the window.
    Fully agree about CSI. Interesting for the mysteries, sometimes, but the procedural elements were always trash.

    NYPD Blue was ok. Much more realism, and particularly early in it's run both well acted and daring. But Homicide: Life on the Street was always the better show, even if it never got the recognition. The first two seasons were fictionalized adaptations of a non-fiction book, and used extensive details from real life events and conversations. There is a fantastic beat in the first season straight out of the book, which actually happened in real life, where the detectives subject a suspect to the Magnetic Neutron Scan. Which is to say, they put his hand in a copy machine they have pre-rigged with "True" and "False" sheets and convince him it's an unbeatable lie detector. Which is actually totally legal. Cops in the US can lie to you all they want, so long as they've Mirandized you.

    The book itself is fantastic as well, if you're at all interested in the subject of detective work or real world policing. The author followed the Baltimore City Homicide squad for a year in 1989, fully embedded with the detectives and authorized to publish quite a bit of actual detail after the fact. And it's a fascinating look at the reality of cops as opposed to the Hollywood tropes people expect.

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    I think the problem with Terra is that what was a clear case then is a mixed bag now.

    Terra was always a sociopath is a hair trigger. Slade had no real power over her, as he wasn't the meme bad ass he is now. One scene had Terra casually nearly killing him as they trained together. He simply pointed her at the Titans, and helped her explode.

    That said, having sex with her was obviously rape. She was below the age of consent and obviously, not all there mentally. He certainly exploited her sexually, but all of her other evil is 100% Terra.

    But the story depicted Terra as being a tramp, for smoking, wearing makeup and wanting to bang Slade. Them bumping uglies was meant as a poor reflection of her moral character, as opposed to a poor reflection of his.

    Both were villains, yes. But Slade was an old, tired man avenging his son.

    Terra was super crazy.

    And since then, Slade was depicted as at least an anti-hero. I understand Marv Wolfman's made some defenses of Slade's behavior, though I dunno what.
    Terra was a straw man character meant to make Slade look more sympathetic. The mental gymnastics Wolfman used to make Slade seem better were worthy of an Olympic gold medal. In a later arc, Slade reveals that Terra killed a mutual friend of his and Beast Boy's. Meaning Slade had no problem working and sleeping with a girl who killed his friend and yet we were supposed to see Slade as the lesser evil of the two.

    And if Slade wanted to avenge his son, he should have gone after the people who made him an assassin not the people who were defending themselves from him.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 04-13-2021 at 10:32 AM.

  15. #105
    Fantastic Member Mark Trail's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    I think the problem with Terra is that what was a clear case then is a mixed bag now.

    Terra was always a sociopath is a hair trigger. Slade had no real power over her, as he wasn't the meme bad ass he is now. One scene had Terra casually nearly killing him as they trained together. He simply pointed her at the Titans, and helped her explode.

    That said, having sex with her was obviously rape. She was below the age of consent and obviously, not all there mentally. He certainly exploited her sexually, but all of her other evil is 100% Terra.

    But the story depicted Terra as being a tramp, for smoking, wearing makeup and wanting to bang Slade. Them bumping uglies was meant as a poor reflection of her moral character, as opposed to a poor reflection of his.

    Both were villains, yes. But Slade was an old, tired man avenging his son.

    Terra was super crazy.

    And since then, Slade was depicted as at least an anti-hero. I understand Marv Wolfman's made some defenses of Slade's behavior, though I dunno what.
    Yeah, other than still not knowing when Wolfman actually defended Slade, I'm pretty much in agreement with what you wrote. However, I would mention that my reading of the Terra in makeup scene in TJC back when it was first published (and I wasn't must older than the character) was not so much "Terra's a tramp," as "Terra has totally snowed Garth." Beyond that, as mentioned before, I never saw Slade as anything but a complete b@$t@rd

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